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By their Deeds shall ye know them

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  • By their Deeds shall ye know them

    Origins states that there are mystical consequences for Heroes, Demigods, and Gods failing a Deed. It then lays out what the repercussions are for Origin characters, presumably leaving the rules for Heroes, etc. to their respective books. Unless I’m completely missing something, there doesn’t appear to be anything in Hero to address failed Deeds. Sure, there’s Calling Failure Deeds, but those are specific to each Calling, and are either voluntary or triggered by a Fatebinding Role Condition resolution.

    If I’m just overlooking something in Hero, it would be great if someone could provide a page reference.
    Otherwise, it seems that in Scion’s story-centric setting, Fate would impose some consequences on Scions who make promises or set goals and then fail to achieve them. Presumably, if a Deed is no longer achievable due to circumstance, any consequence would be minor or waived. I assume that if a Scion voluntarily abandoned a Deed, it would count as a failure.

  • #2
    You know what'd be neat? If Failures stuck with you and came up in Attitudes or maybe things akin to Titles. Like, if you Fail against an Aos Sidhe, you have Attitude Penalties when dealing with Aos Sidhe in the future, because they don't respect you. Or maybe you pick up a persistent Condition, with similar effects, because the Failure stuck.


    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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    • #3
      I'm definitely in favor of something like a Condition related to the failed (or abandoned) Deed as Fate's punishment for not following through. With an easier resolution or limited duration for those case where the reason for failure was beyond the scion's control.

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      • #4
        The story guide could gain Scale over the character when dealing with a failed deed, let’s say, onde you were defeated by a werewolf, werewolves can gain scale over you. You than need to do a deed similar or something like that to break it.

        It would be like a title you have, but that goes against your heroism, the one defeated by the werewolf, the one that didn’t save the princess, the one that lost the tornment.

        For example, a bit silly, but interesting, Zeus is a lot of things, but he has the title of “The Furnicator of Olympus”, when the storyguide pull this title any girl will gain scale over him to seduce him, even against the girl’s will.

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        • #5
          Gaining SCALE over you? Yeesh, yeah, uh... I wouldn't hand out Scale that easily.

          Scale is terrifying.


          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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          • #6
            Okay, absent any official rule for the Fated consequences of failing to accomplish a Deed, here’s my take:

            I think I’ll go with an imposed Condition if the Deed is failed. For this purpose, “failure” falls into one of three categories:
            • Failed - the scion tried and failed, and the Deed cannot be re-attempted due to circumstances. For example, “Kill Evander in single combat”; scion tries, gets his arse kicked, the band pitches in, and in the process Evander is killed.
            • Abandoned - the scion opts to discard the Deed, for whatever reason. Maybe circumstances have changed (“Turns out we’ve been suckered; Evander is actually one of the good guys!”), the scion’s objectives/priorities have shifted (“I’m trying to avoid killing these days”), or simply because their five Deed slots are all occupied and they would like to take a new Deed as part of a Session start tweak.
            • No Fault – the Deed can no longer be accomplished due to circumstances beyond the scion’s control (“Did you hear? Evander was crushed to death in Rio while fighting that animated Cristo Redentor statue!”)
            In the Failed and Abandoned cases, when the Failure Condition is imposed, I’d also add a Tension to the pool. Yes, this affects the band, but according to Origins, the whole table is supposed to assist with accomplishing all Deeds, so seems fair.

            For the Condition penalty, I’d go with a 1 or 2 Difficulty or Complication related to the failed Deed. For example: You failed to kill Evander in single combat, and now your lack of confidence (amplified by Fate) causes you to suffer a +1 Difficulty when in single combat (or maybe when in group combat). Or a 2 Complication in single combat; if you don’t buy off the Complication, your opponent’s weapons gains the Piercing or Brutal tag on their next attack. As Kyman noted, an Attitude shift would also be a good penalty (Your failed attempt to kill Evander, has resulted in a -1 Attitude shift with his family/friends/pantheon).

            I think the Condition resolution should involve completing another Deed related to the failed Deed in order to make amends. Hopefully this would spawn some plotlines where the scion goes to a sage/oracle or prays to the gods, etc. to find out why they seem to be cursed in single combat, with the sage/oracle/god telling them the reason and revealing the contrition Deed. This Deed would occupy a Deed slot as normal, cannot be abandoned once accepted, and Fate (and the GM) should ensure that it doesn’t have a No Fault outcome.

            If the scion fails this contrition Deed too, then the GM can simply add some Tension to the pool, and have them request a new Deed, and perhaps increase the Condition penalty if warranted (“I screwed up, and now it’s worse”). In the worst case, a scion might end up with a full stack of Deeds resulting from failures that he can’t get rid of (and therefore can’t take any new Deeds from a session tweak). If that happens, his friends in the band should definitely be staging an intervention to help the poor guy out of his downward spiral.

            For No Fault scenario Conditions, I’d either have no failure Condition, or have the Condition expire at the end of the act, or episode at worst, since Fate shouldn’t be retaliating much for things beyond the scion's control.

            Well, that’s my approach, unless we get some official rules in the Companion or such. Comment and critique encouraged.
            Last edited by Fairlyhyperman; 08-23-2019, 05:01 PM.

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            • #7
              I personally wouldn't impose a fate reinforced consequence for abandoned in the form of a penalty giving condition. Fate may however try to push the Scion into taking the deed back up/performing it anyway. That said I think such Fate constraints fit better at Demigod tier than Hero, where the bindings are rather lax.


              My Mage 2e Homebrew

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Flinty View Post
                I personally wouldn't impose a fate reinforced consequence for abandoned in the form of a penalty giving condition. Fate may however try to push the Scion into taking the deed back up/performing it anyway. That said I think such Fate constraints fit better at Demigod tier than Hero, where the bindings are rather lax.
                A point. At Hero tier, a failure may be better represented with a situational Enhancement against you from time to time, and in a shift in NPC Attitude towards the PC in question. Like, the Minotaur isn't intimidated by you because he heard how you got thrashed in a fight against his cousin or whatever.


                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Flinty View Post
                  That said I think such Fate constraints fit better at Demigod tier than Hero, where the bindings are rather lax.
                  Well, we haven't seen how Fate operates at Demigod level yet, but I wouldn't call the influence of Fate at Hero-level lax. Look at Fatebindings; a lot of the Role invokes provide enhancement or benefits equal to the Fatebinding strength, which at a strength 5 binding is nothing to sneeze at. And if a scion uses both the invoke and compel of a binding each session, it's trivial to push the binding strength up to 5 before it would normally expire due to its strength rank. Sure, you can avoid using Fatebindings to allow them to expire in their time, but they are a great source of advantages, legend and story, so why would you.

                  The easiest time to avoid a Fatebinding is when you're dealing with a rank 1 binding while at legend 1, since the GM is only rolling 2d, so there's only a 51% chance per binding check of hitting a milestone. So, if you're lucky and miss the milestone check on both an invoke and compel in a session, you're good; if the episode is only one session long, that is. Once a binding's strength or the scion's legend hits 2, and the milestone check pool becomes 3+ dice, then the chance of hitting the milestone every time rises rapidly. And as the binding strength goes up, the expiration time increases. Running the numbers, if a scion both invokes and compels a binding each session, it will only take around 8 to 9 sessions to push the binding up to strength 5, at which point the binding (or maybe only the character; the rule on Hero p197 is ambiguous) is bound for eternity.

                  The point being, at Hero-level, Fate can bind two characters together beyond death and apotheosis, and it's pretty easy to get to that point. That applies to Fatebindings of course, rather than Deeds. It may be that Fate cares less about Deeds and their failures, though Deeds are all about story, which is intrinsic to Fate, so I'd expect a similar degree of attention/enforcement from Fate when a scion fails to follow through on something they've committed to.
                  Last edited by Fairlyhyperman; 08-24-2019, 08:29 PM.

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                  • #10
                    I think that Flinty was noting that in the Fatebindings is mentioned, the Hero book also mentions "This is pretty tame. Fate grows its teeth at later Tiers, like Demigod and especially God"

                    So we don't know how Fate works at Demigod, but we know it's meaner than it is at Hero tier.


                    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                      I think that Flinty was noting that in the Fatebindings is mentioned, the Hero book also mentions "This is pretty tame. Fate grows its teeth at later Tiers, like Demigod and especially God"

                      So we don't know how Fate works at Demigod, but we know it's meaner than it is at Hero tier.
                      Yep. In addition the book also specifically mentions that:

                      the biggest difference is that Fate actively punishes Demigods who try to step outside their Fatebindings.
                      So we've got some indication that at the Demigod tier there are specific consequences for stepping outside your Fate ordrained role.
                      Last edited by Flinty; 08-26-2019, 09:10 AM.


                      My Mage 2e Homebrew

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                      • #12
                        There was a social condition in CoD similar to this, not near my books. Something like infamy, bad reputation, disfavored, some that imposed I thing a -2d or door penalty until resolved. I used it often.

                        Best regards



                        Roleplaying not Rollplaying or Ruleplaying
                        Current Focus
                        Storypath & Storypath to Run CoD, VtR, WtF, MtA
                        Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition

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