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Knacks & Purviews balance

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  • Knacks & Purviews balance

    A lot of powers just flat out no sell each other. Like, a heroic knack Takes One to Know One just completely eliminates the majority of the Deception purview. Pretty low cost to eliminate an entire purview. Then on the other end, you've got Darkness which can just instantly take someone out with absolutely no defense only costing an imbued legend. Is there supposed to be some method to this madness? Because I'm not seeing it.
    Last edited by angryicecream; 09-07-2019, 02:42 AM.

  • #2
    Did you see the mechanics for Clash of Wills?

    Edit: Also I think part of the assumption is that... Y'know, entities with Knacks and Boons (PCs) probably won't be using them against one-another. Since Antagonists generally don't have Knacks and Boons.

    Edit v 2: And if your answer is "But what if the party goes PvP?" I think the assumption is "You're not really using the system as intended", as Scion assumes that the PCs are going to, y'know, cooperate for the most part.

    Edit v 3: But out of curiosity, let's take a look at your examples, because they sound INCREDIBLY hyperbolic.
    • "A Heroic Knack 'Takes One to Know One' just completely eliminates the majority of the Deception Purview
      • Okay let's do a comparison. "Takes One to Know One" lets you realize when a lie or a scam is taking place. It does not actually let you see the truth, it only tells you when you are being lied to or scammed. You need to dig further on your own. Keep this in mind.
      • Deception's Innate power is "Other characters take a +3 Complication on all Empathy rolls and Assess Attitude rolls against you. If they don't spend enough successes to overcome the Complication, you choose the result they get."
        • So, if someone uses TOtKO on someone with Deception, and assuming the Deception Scion is lying or scamming... They get the sense that something hinky's going on. It doesn't tell the Trickster what is up, and the Innate power will still apply if the Trickster tries to Assess the Deception Scion. So they can go "Wait, you're lying" and still be wrong about what they're lying about.
      • Ephemera is an illusion. It's neither a lie nor a scam. TOtKO doesn't apply.
      • False History is a lie that you're trying to wire someone into believing. TOtKO may trigger... But then we run into the Clash Rules. The Boon says that making False History stick is a clash where the User rolls Manipulation + Legend, while the target resists using Resolve + Legend.
        • Plus, even if TOtKO applies even when the memory takes, it will still only make you go 'Hey wait a minute', it doesn't actually make you see the truth.
      • Walk Unnoticed isn't a lie or a con. It's just making people ignore you. TOtKO doesn't apply.
    • Darkness which can just instantly take someone out with absolutely no defense only costing an Imbued Legend
      • As long as it's not a stressful situation, such as combat, and unless the targets are Trivial you need to pop a Legend for each person you send to sleepytown.
    Last edited by Kyman201; 09-07-2019, 03:01 AM.


    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
      Edit v 2: And if your answer is "But what if the party goes PvP?" I think the assumption is "You're not really using the system as intended", as Scion assumes that the PCs are going to, y'know, cooperate for the most part.
      Yikes! That is a really big assumption. In-game squabbles and even fights seem like they would be common at many tables. Especially in a game about mythological themes, where betrayal and tragedy are so common.

      Perhaps this would be relegated to narration?


      “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
      Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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      • #4
        Yeah I feel PvP should always be an option in the rules, even if the group may shy away from it.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #5
          Then there is still the clash of will rules and several methods to defend against such things.
          One marvel is clearing a condition (which sleeping from Darkness purview would be)


          Completed campaign: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter anf a 1 year old son.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
            Yeah I feel PvP should always be an option in the rules, even if the group may shy away from it.
            My group once had a PVP battle royale to determine which of us got the last Oatmeal Creme Pie in the box.


            "We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
            Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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            • #7
              Not to mention - is it assumed that PC Scions won't ever confront and oppose Scions who work for other forces? Because when they do, those other Scions will have their own knacks and purviews, and opposed rolls will be absolutely necessary.

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              • #8
                I may have been speaking a bit hyperbolically as well, it was a bit late when I made that post.

                I still maintain my points of how there ARE in fact Clash rules for when Knacks and Boons are resisted.


                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                • #9
                  Have to say that Kyman201 is absolutely right in both posts.

                  What is happening here is the same as saying that Domination and Presence destroy the vampire game because they control everybody all the time when they want. That’s not true, Clash of Wills is there exactly to handle PvP and Pv powerful adversaries (equivalent to PCs).

                  If you think it’s not good enough, just force any use of powers against targets with legend values to force a clash, even when not by the rules. I think it will make the game really slow, but would give a great defensive power to anyone with legend value.

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                  • #10
                    Also keep in mind that my comments have been assuming that both parties are on the same Tier. Knacks explicitly don't work against targets of two tiers higher.

                    (Reminder: Tier 1 = Origin, Tier 2 = Hero, Tier 3 = Demigod, Tier 4 = God)

                    So if you have a Knack that lets you know if someone's lying to you, but Odin is the one you're scoping out... Odin's a God. He can tell you that the sky is green and Takes One To Know One won't go off.

                    The easier way to tell if Odin is lying is to check and see if his mouth is moving.


                    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                      Not to mention - is it assumed that PC Scions won't ever confront and oppose Scions who work for other forces? Because when they do, those other Scions will have their own knacks and purviews, and opposed rolls will be absolutely necessary.
                      I think you still use the antagonist buiding rules even if the anta is a scion.
                      Notably the Hero book has a scion of Julius Cesar and one of Anansi as examples (i think, i don't have the books near me).


                      Completed campaign: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter anf a 1 year old son.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post

                        I think you still use the antagonist buiding rules even if the anta is a scion.
                        Notably the Hero book has a scion of Julius Cesar and one of Anansi as examples (i think, i don't have the books near me).
                        You actually have both options, you can create a nemesis by character creation rules, as it’s a recurrent and may be fun to use a more complete character. You don’t need to, but you can if you want to as SG.

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                        • #13
                          I don't see why you would treat something as potentially important as a Scion as though it were just a scrub; they shouldn't be common enough to be thrown away like that. Other thugs, bosses, and assorted monsters, sure. But not Scions.

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                          • #14
                            You don’t need to create a full sheet to a character to make it important. Also, if you have a general idea it can result on a more powerful adversary than a fully described, because a full description also describe the limits.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                              I don't see why you would treat something as potentially important as a Scion as though it were just a scrub; they shouldn't be common enough to be thrown away like that. Other thugs, bosses, and assorted monsters, sure. But not Scions.
                              Haha i really advise against making your antagonistic scion using the Foe archetype XD
                              The titanspawn archetype might be going too far the other direction but hey if thats what it takes for your antagonist to not be a "scrub", then go for it.
                              Last edited by Maitrecorbo; 09-10-2019, 07:49 AM.


                              Completed campaign: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter anf a 1 year old son.

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