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Analogies of the Pantheons to Christianity

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  • Analogies of the Pantheons to Christianity

    Topic for finding analogues of the Pantheons with Christianity. Could be useful for making this whole ‘secret cults inside of Vatican’ Scion 2E corebooks says there are.

    Here is comparison list between Aesir and Christianity from our game.
    • Serpent of Eden – Jormungand, Midgard Serpent
    • Angels - Valkyries
    • Saints – Einherjers, heroes from Valhalla
    • Satan – Loki
    • Apocalypse – Ragnarok
    • Cross as symbol of sacrifice – Sacrifice of Odin, by hanging on the tree, to get knowledge

    My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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    LGBT+ in CoD games

  • #2


    • #3
      ... Okay. Okay.


      Sometimes I play up my sarcasm. Sometimes I'm cheeky, sometimes I'm a smartass. This time, I'm just going to be upfront.

      This is a bad idea you should stop immediately

      Like, no. Christianity has enough of a history of sticking its fingers into everything without people who know nothing trying to make it worse.

      Also, holy shit... You got NOTHING right in this list. There are parallels that you can draw between Christianity and the Nordic religion and you identified literally none of them, showing a lack of understanding EITHER of them.
      • The Serpent of Eden as a figure of temptation and potentially Satan has nothing to do with Jormungand, save that they're snakes. You could draw a stronger parallel between Jormungand and Apep/Apophis from EGYPTIAN Mythology because those are both big bestial animalistic monsters who serve as a BIG MONSTER to be fought off.
      • Angels and Valkyries have... NOTHING in common. At all. One are vaguely humanoid figures from Asgard charged with selecting worthy warriors. The OTHERS are in no way humanoid, and are sent by the Almighty to enforce His will by speaking His messages to His prophets, but most of those Prophets are Chosen while very much alive and are NOT going to be used as foot soldiers in the End of Days. You can't even say that they're filling the same cosmological niche, because one gathers the dead and one enacts the Will of the other.
      • Saints and Einherjar... Have even LESS in common. They were mortals... Once... Now they're not. There, that's the long and short of it. I admit I don't know the FULL process of canonization as a Saint, but I know that most of them are selected for virtuous actions in life and I believe through miracles attributed to them after death.
        • IN ADDITION, they don't serve anything resembling the same roles. Einherjar are soldiers for the coming war of Ragnarok. In Catholicism, Saints basically sort God's email. They... If I'M pointing out where you're wrong in this kind of thing you have fucked up big time because I'm as casual as they come with religions.
      • Satan and Loki... What even. No, seriously, what? MAYBE in the sense of them being former friends who got kicked out for Doing A Bad Thing, but... Otherwise? Loki doesn't keep the Dead and Sinners, that's Hel. Loki doesn't tempt people into sin. Loki doesn't rule over the Fallen whatevers.
      • Armageddon and Ragnarok. Okay, at least these have ground for comparison, in that both are how the world ends. You get half a point for that. But like, there's a LOT of World Ending stories. Like do we also have to say that the Hinduisms are like Christianity because most of them say that the world will end with the conclusion of the current Kali Yuga in about 460,000 years?
        • Also, it's arguable that since our account of Ragnarok comes from the Poetic Eddas, which was definitely post-Christianity, one could claim that Armageddon influenced the public opinion of Ragnarok, but that's for people who know more than I.
      • Cross as the symbol of sacrifice and Odin's hanging on a tree. Okay, THIS is also reaching. Leaving aside how the Cross was a symbol because Jesus supposedly died on it (and I believe there are records of the Roman Empire executing prisoners via crucifixion hence the most likely origin) the two have very different contexts around them. One was a sacrifice on behalf of humanity to absolve them of their sins, and the other was a very personal sacrifice to gain his own knowledge. Also, Odin survived his hanging from the tree. Jesus kinda died and respawned.
        • In addition to above Odin and Jesus have nothing at all in common. Jesus was a compassionate social revolutionary intent on overthrowing the established status quo. Odin was the overpowering status quo who broke all social norms for one person: Himself. Odin was cruel, selfish, and greedy, only in it for himself.
      How do you know so little about Christianity? I'm an Agnostic who only picked up Christianity through osmosis and somehow I seem to know more about this than you.

      Just. Stop. If your inner guide to spotting mythical similarities is 'What would Joseph Campbell do?' you're doing it wrong.

      Edit: Also, one would think the thing about Secret Cults in the Vatican would be not Christian, and that's why they're Secrets.

      Or they're from one of the Apocryphal Christian Cults from back in the juicy days, before any major widespread unification.

      Edit 2: Also you were drawing parallels between the Nordic religion and Christianity and you didn't even MENTION discussing how much Jesus may have influenced the modern image of Baldr? That's like the most obvious thing.
      Last edited by Kyman201; 11-04-2019, 06:47 AM.

      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.


      • #4
        I'm sorry. This comparison really bothers me too.

        Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.


        • #5
          Trying not to threadcrap here; but as a Christian and a Scion fan, the most positive thing I can think of to say about this concept is that it's a very good example of what not to do. Can we end it now, please?


          • #6
            Not wanting to, as Dataweaver says, threadcrap either but as a heathen and a Scion fan there's a thing that seems to be a common thread in things that I kind of feel the need to point out. Not just in terms of this thread but in other things too.

            Loki is not evil.

            Loki is selfish, to be certain. Often vain and entirely enamoured of their own cleverness. Loki does bad things sometimes, but when you look at everything in context, it's largely Loki being selfish or short sighted rather than any desire to be evil. Loki causes trouble, but after the fixing of that trouble things are always, always, better. Loki is the change that isn't wanted but that is ultimately needed and that everything is better for (except poor Loki).

            I won't go on about it because I don't want to threadjack, but I'd be happy to discuss further in PMs or whatnot if anyone is interested. But the recurring theme of 'Loki is evil and to blame for all the bad things' that crops up in modern popular culture kind of just gets a bit old for me.


            • #7
              Sometimes a shared event is a legit historical connection

              Often shared myths wind up as coincidences, such as how tons of different cultures have some sort of flood myth.


              • #8
                In some likely futile attempt to salvage this into a more useful line of discussion:

                Would people want to discuss what symbolism (rather than parallels between religions) secret cults of various Pantheons would use to communicate without ceasing to be secret? You'd probably need to approach this with at least the "open secret but enough people can over look it," approach, and the "yeah, this is really secret," approach.

                Though, I think it's worth taking the idea of secret cults in the Vatican with a grain of salt... after all only ~1,000 people live in Vatican City. Even if one assumes most of the actual members of these cults are in Rome proper, not the Vatican, too many of these things (esp. since you have cults of deities, not Pantheons) quickly turns the Vatican so non-Christian it'd be too much of a joke.


                • #9
                  Well, this is a grenade with the pin pulled. in order to salvage this a bit lets take the perspectives of the Pantheons on the various ranks of Angels and how they would fit in the Setting:

                  Seraphim: You will never see these down in the mortal realm as they are far too busy protecting God's Throne and acting as literal heavenly caretakers. Unless you are puttering around at Scion: God Level, you should never see these. These Angels are often Depicted as fiery six-winged humanoids.

                  Cheribum: Cherubim have four faces: one of a man, an ox, a lion, and an eagle. They have four conjoined wings covered with eyes,, a lion's body, and the feet of oxen. Cherubim guard the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden, and the throne of God. These are not the cute little kids with wings, but Heavens primary guardians and should eat the characters lunch if they try barging in.

                  Thrones or Elders: Often referred to as Ofanium.(wheels) and 'Many Eyed Ones', they are in celestial form burning, Four nested, many spoked wheels with eyes along the wheels and spokes, creating something very bizarre looking by most peoples standards to look at. They are the representatives of the Lords (not Mortal) justice and will mete it out where needed. If the players have drawn the attention of these, they had best have done nothing horrible. These are the ones that turn cities into Salt, send Plagues, and generally deal in Smiting. And they do not do Modernist/Post-Modernist thinking. They are more of a celestial mechanism.

                  The Dominions Or Dominations: These are the Higher Order (middling nobility) angels who's main job is to keep lower angels from screwing up overly much. They rarely show themselves to Mortals. Various Godlings should see them in passing only as they are a bit more active than Thrones, but if the players are doing something that follows the words they are protecting, they should not be overly hostile. They have other duties to worry over. Going against their word will get ugly. Fast. Typically depicted as the humanoid with two wings, but literal glowing auras on body and weapons.

                  The Virtues: Pretty much the Angels in charge of signs and portents. They might be working overtime working the back channels with the various 'seer' of the Pantheons as the Titans and Titanspawn awaken.

                  The Powers Or Authorities: Warrior Angels that might actually occasional come to Earth to actually help out as they would perceive Titans/Titanspawn as evil threats that must be smote from existence. They would not overly care about the various science, unless one is actively going out of it's way to be a pain in the ass to it's flock. These angels are usually represented as soldiers wearing full armor and helmet, and also having defensive and offensive weapons such as shields and spears or chains respectively. Angelic Warrior Cops pretty much.

                  The Principalities or Rulers: The "Principalities" (Latin: principatus) also translated as "Princedoms" and "Rulers", are the angels that guide and protect nations, or groups of peoples, and institutions such as the Church. The Principalities preside over the bands of angels and charge them with fulfilling the divine ministry. There are some who administer and some who assist. The Principalities are shown wearing a crown and carrying a sceptre. Their duty also is said to be to carry out the orders given to them by the upper sphere angels and bequeath blessings to the material world. Their task is to oversee groups of people. They are the educators and guardians of the realm of earth. Like beings related to the world of the germinal ideas, they are said to inspire living things to many things such as art or science. They are likely to be the most powerful Angels to be seen by the players and drawing ones attention could be good or bad, depending on if the players behavior could threaten its charges on a material, physical, or spiritual level.

                  The Archangelso I have to say anything about these? Michael is the one who beat Ha'Satan's ass bloody and threw his ass from Heaven. The other rebels knew enough to say "we'll just be going now..."

                  Angels: Pretty much what you get from pop culture, embodiment of Words and other such,

                  Now, what would the various pantheons think of this lot?


                  • #10
                    I'm just gonna relink this homebrew of an Angelic Host Pantheon by MorsRattas. It's a great deal more Jewish than Christian, but if one wanted to do Abrahamic Stuff in Scion I'd probably point them there first.

                    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.


                    • #11
                      More Jewish than Christian, yes; and I'm perfectly fine with that: at least from my own upbringing, the specifics of the Heavenly Host are generally petted as not very important in the larger scheme of things: what matters is Jesus Christ; the specifics of Angelic hierarchies pale in comparison.

                      Furthermore, Christianity is built on Judaism; so having the truth of the “Angelic Host” Pantheon be more heavily influenced by Judaism than by Christianity just feels right to me.


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                        Like, no. Christianity has enough of a history of sticking its fingers into everything without people who know nothing trying to make it worse.
                        True, I was raised Christian, and even I get irritated whenever they refer to other religious pantheons and figures as "fallen angels" while insisting up and down that their god would easily crush them with a flick of the wrist. Being monotheistic is one thing, but outright claiming that YOUR God is the ONLY God, and everyone else are demons trying to lead you down the road to Hell is not a welcomed doctrine.

                        Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                        Jesus was a compassionate social revolutionary intent on overthrowing the established status quo.
                        Mmmm, not necessarily? *winces*

                        Turns out, Jesus actually supported the Old Testament, and encouraged people to continue following it. Declaring that "until all works were done, not one letter shall be stricken from the whole of the law." and that anyone who refused to teach or practice the Old Testament would be held "least in the eyes of the Lord."

                        He also advocated slavery, which the bible likens it to a metaphor of one's faithfulness.

                        Not only that, but he says that he has not come to spread love to the people, but rather hatred. He would pit friend against friend, sibling against sibling, and parent against child.

                        Yeah, turns out there's a pretty valid reason why people say that most Christians have never actually read the Bible.

                        EDIT: Then again, there are 20,000 different varieties of Christianity, so I could be completely wrong about that stuff. Hard to say, really!
                        Last edited by Nyrufa; 11-04-2019, 10:33 AM.