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A lost pantheon?

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  • A lost pantheon?

    Try this idea...

    When mount Tambora blew up in the early 19th century and caused the "Year without a Summer" the peoples of the island we're almost entirely wiped out. A large and to all reports fairly advanced culture lived on the less visited side of the island. They were truly obliterated. Not only do we not have even one word of their language ( although we know other Islanders said it was different than any other language they knew, and these people understood about languages being related) we don't even know what they called themselves. Hey, we don't really even know what they were called.

    Now try this idea. A few members of the pantheon of these people have gotten over their depression and come back to the world.

    Basically, how would you handle a lost Pantheon. All of their myths are gone. Their language is not just extinct, it's totally lost. So they can be built from the ground up. Giving the Storyteller free reign.

    Would other pantheons seek to recruit them. Shun them? Drive them off?

    Could they build a new place in the world? Maybe taking over pop culture myths and molding them into something worthwhile.

    What do you think. Given the place they lived, their gods could fit several different patterns. They were known to be sophisticated and in a multicultural area of the Earth.

  • #2
    This is a rather interesting idea. Unknown Orphan gods you say... hmmm that sounds like potential incarnate.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #3
      I would be exceptionally careful doing something like this. These were real people who existed, with their own culture and values and traditions that, as you say, we know nothing about. Should we be using this dead culture as a coat-hanger to build a fictional religion off of?


      Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
      The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann, The Zemi: The Pantheon of the Taíno People(s).

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      • #4
        We already do. And the dead culture was destroyed by a volcano that wiped them completely out. There are no known descendents nor any way to trace descendents. As I said, it's not just we don't know what they called themselves, we have no idea what their neighbors called them. The closest we get to non archeological data is the testimony of one old Indonesian woman (and as she must have lived and died under Dutch rule that description is limited) who said her father told her they were impressive (her words, she was fluent in English, as well as Dutch and French) she also said, "I think you English and the Dutch would have said they were advanced." What she based her opinions on, other than her father's word, I don't know.

        As these folks are a total blank beyond the archeology saying they had large numbers of horses and excellent metalwork. And oh yes, they existed.

        Read the book Ireland's Immortals. You'll see most of what we think we know of the Irish Pantheon is mainly fiction. Heck, we keep on finding out that most of what we say we know about the Olympians is really Renaissance Italian fiction about the Greek gods.

        I can't see the harm. Especially when no one can be hurt.

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        • #5
          Dude, are you aware who it is you just asked to research Irish mythology?

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          • #6
            No. I hope he's Irish if you're so shocked. But we really know far less than we think we do about the Irish deites.

            Note: I'm of Irish descent and have an Irish surname. I've read what been available to me (pathetically little) about Irish culture and history. So don't dismiss me lightly, use solid facts.
            Last edited by Astromancer; 03-28-2020, 07:15 PM.

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            • #7
              Watcher is a PHD candidate in Celtic Studies, with a focus on mythology. He may even have the degree by now for all I know. He's an actual, honest-to-goodness, expert, and a hardcore academic in regards to this stuff.

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              • #8
                Good to know. I wish I had the knack for languages. Still, my point is sound. We routinely create fictions out of other people's cultures. As an American, I'm routinely made into a subhuman monster in the fictions of more than a hundred nations. anti-Americanism is a fashionable and accepted bigotry. The people wiped out by Tambora are beyond all pain. If I create a fiction based on them they can feel no harm. Meanwhile flesh and blood Americans pay for the lies told about America. But no one would ever restrain themselves from making harmful and slandering fictions about America because of that.

                Myself, I intend neither lies or slander. So I bitterly resent being scolded. Watcher assumed a position of moral superiority and told me to conform for no justifiable reason. I think I was polite in response.
                Last edited by Astromancer; 03-28-2020, 08:56 PM.

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                • #9
                  I mean if I wanted to just come up with a fictional mythology in Scion I'd probably pick a 'lost' culture I just fucking made up whole cloth. Can't get anything wrong about an ancient culture if I completely invented them.

                  Edit: Also, Watcher's comment felt more to me like advising of caution rather than moralizing. Just going "Careful there, remember these were a real people" isn't really scolding, anymore than going "Hey if you take this turn at 45 mph your car may flip" is scolding.
                  Last edited by Kyman201; 03-28-2020, 09:15 PM.


                  Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                    I mean if I wanted to just come up with a fictional mythology in Scion I'd probably pick a 'lost' culture I just fucking made up whole cloth. Can't get anything wrong about an ancient culture if I completely invented them.

                    Edit: Also, Watcher's comment felt more to me like advising of caution rather than moralizing. Just going "Careful there, remember these were a real people" isn't really scolding, anymore than going "Hey if you take this turn at 45 mph your car may flip" is scolding.
                    You may be right, but I saw a perfect historical blank. If a put a pantheon in many other places, there is someone living there. The other side of Tambora is a perfect blank. Anything can be put there without consequence.

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                    • #11
                      I would say the Scion has already done something like that, with the Gaelic Pantheon (Nemontedavos, I think?). This just takes it to an extreme.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                        Watcher is a PHD candidate in Celtic Studies, with a focus on mythology. He may even have the degree by now for all I know. He's an actual, honest-to-goodness, expert, and a hardcore academic in regards to this stuff.
                        Might want to tone it down to, I'm sure Watcher appreciate the validity of what Astromancer said. Academics are also people that can be interacted with in a manner beyond just only asking questions, you can have conversations with them, they aren't living mangods.

                        Astromancer seems to see the concern, but this is an alternate reality how is this more disrespectful then say Vampire saying Pampei was destroyed to wipe out demons, or that Carthage literally supported and worshipped Demonic Demigods. Or that Sri Lanka was literally ruled by Demon King Ravana in the past.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                          Read the book Ireland's Immortals. You'll see most of what we think we know of the Irish Pantheon is mainly fiction. Heck, we keep on finding out that most of what we say we know about the Olympians is really Renaissance Italian fiction about the Greek gods.

                          I can't see the harm. Especially when no one can be hurt.
                          I actually have read the book, it is quite good! There are some parts I disagree with, but those are mostly just pedantic side issues I have with the Fomorian stuff in it. That's just my own personal theories involved there though rather than anything against the work as a whole. Mark is a great guy, absolute sweetheart. He's been the mentor of one of my best friends when he was still working at Cambridge and I really look forward to getting to meet him in person. His writing has had a big effect on me.

                          I have honestly spent more than time than I probably ought to have thinking about the nature of the Túatha Dé as effectively a... retroactively constructed pagan past in the specific context of Scion. I'll not bore people with it, but if it is a topic that interests you and you like Mark's book, I have it all written up in one of the PDFs in my signature.

                          As people have said, I wasn't saying it shouldn't be done, I was just saying it is something that it would probably be a good idea to take some caution with. You know, just like The Lorax said, 'I Speak for the Trees, for the Trees have no tongues.' My mantra is that I Speak for the Dead, for the Dead have no tongues. While we might not hurt anyone by misrepresenting and mistreating them, you know, what can we do but aspire to kindness? If you want to do something with them, maybe base it off those final interviews and the archaeological findings? Even though nobody can be 'hurt,' doing that little bit of extra legwork to do these forgotten people a kindness is just a nice thing. As you yourself point out, you have been hurt by negative depictions of America in pop culture and media at large, evidently you can see how this sort of lack of care can hurt people. While there not be any members of this culture left, you can give their memory the respect you would want your own culture to receive, that sorta thing.

                          Furthermore, if you are interested in more material to learn about Irish sagas, just drop me a line! I am more than happy to share whatever I can and give suggestions to help people learn about medieval Irish literature!

                          (Also, I go by they, but, no big deal)

                          EDIT: Just because I don't come on here a lot, also, the Nemetondevos are going to be the like... 'Gaulish' Pantheon, but I expect it'll be more like the 'Classical Era Celts' as the Gauls cut out all of Britain, Celtiberia, the Anatolian Celts, the Central European Celts, a lotta people. Gaelic is a language term for... oh boy, let's see if I can get this from memory. Languages descended from Miiiidle Irish? I think? It is based on a medieval ethnonym for the Irish.


                          EDIT 2: I really hate double posting so I'm just adding stuff in edits. Yeah, I'm just a random human being. Me being an academic just means I've made bad life choices and now know quite honestly far too much about really niche topics. I'm totally capable of being wrong. I've been wrong in the past, and I'm going to be wrong again, its a great habit of mine. I just happen to have more tools on hand to make a fool of myself and the ability to do it in such niche topics I'll probably not be corrected on it until I've been dead for twenty years when the next person bothers to care about it.
                          Last edited by Watcher; 03-29-2020, 12:23 AM.


                          Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                          The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann, The Zemi: The Pantheon of the Taíno People(s).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am not personally comfortable with the idea of inventing my own OCs and declaring them to be part of a real-world culture or religion without significant precautions being taken. I personally have no interest in making my own gods, but, should you desire to do so, I think Kyman has the perfect solution: create your own original culture. Atlantis, after all, can be more or less whatever you want it to be, and there are countless mythological cultures the world over should you desire to do so. Hell, I could even see some of the races of Denizens (or at least the ones that don't serve specific deities already) having their own religions and pantheons.

                            As for the Nemetendevos, Zemis, Aisar, Alihah, and so on and so forth, there is a big difference between pantheons where information is scarce and pantheons where information is nonexistent. I think Watcher and Sacerdos's take on the Zemis is a great model for how to handle such a pantheon and deal with the presence of unknowns in the narrative. While some liberties of course had to be taken, everything has SOME basis in the lore. None of the individual deities were completely invented. That's different than making up a religion and declaring that it belonged to a real-world culture group, which is what would presumably have to happen here.

                            The comparison with Vampire is a bit of a false equivalency. Vampire is not a mythology adaptation and presents no illusions of being one. It has some mythological inspiration, as does most urban fantasy, but that's different than something which attempts to adapt real-world religions in their entirety into its lore.

                            Also, in Scion, the Deva write-up made it very clear that the Lanka which Ravana rules over is a Terra Incognita and not the same as the real world Sri Lanka. For all we know, the local Sinhalese deities could eventually be adapted, and certainly not as slaves or minions of Ravana.
                            Last edited by Wannabe Demon Lord; 03-29-2020, 12:15 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              Astromancer seems to see the concern, but this is an alternate reality how is this more disrespectful then say Vampire saying Pampei was destroyed to wipe out demons, or that Carthage literally supported and worshipped Demonic Demigods.
                              VtM is hardly the best example to give of a game that treats all cultures respectfully, given the justified criticism it has received for it's portrayal of several of them *cough* Ravnos *cough* The question was never 'How is this more disrespectful' but 'why can't it be more respectful'.

                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              Or that Sri Lanka was literally ruled by Demon King Ravana in the past.
                              You mean the thing Scion 2e explicitly says is *not* the case?

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