Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Other Worlds and aliens in Scion?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Other Worlds and aliens in Scion?

    So the gods created this World that humans live in and created humanity. What I haven't seen though in the books is a discussion of what other worlds and intelligent creatures might have been created by the gods.

    Have any of you thought about the possibilities for this? What would aliens worship, for example? And are there other planets like earth that the gods have created?

    Sorry for spamming lots of questions in this forum, but the gameworld of Scion fascinates me too much.

  • #2
    When you look at the stories told about and attitudes taken toward aliens, they've clearly part of the spiritual ecosystem. "Space Brothers" are often interchangeable with angels. Many traits of the faeries are typical of the "aliens." The "Nordics" equate to elves or sidhe. Greys equate with goblins and the Norse Dwarfs that were born from the magots that crawled on Ymir's corpse. The Reptilians equate to such beings as the Italian Orcos and Orchulis, and the Arabs Ghouls and Jinni.

    As what the 1st ed called "Lesser Immortals" and the present edition calls denizens, the Aliens probably worship distinctive aspects of the better known gods.

    Comment


    • #3
      Alternatively, with the new Companion coming out, you could give the Aliens a Pantheon (or more) of their own.

      Comment


      • #4
        Given Æon and its supplements also use the Storypath system, it shouldn't be too hard to convert 'em over to Scion rules if you were of a mind to do so.


        Ian A. A. Watson
        Onyx Path Community Manager
        Trinity Continuum Content Lead

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
          When you look at the stories told about and attitudes taken toward aliens, they've clearly part of the spiritual ecosystem. "Space Brothers" are often interchangeable with angels. Many traits of the faeries are typical of the "aliens." The "Nordics" equate to elves or sidhe. Greys equate with goblins and the Norse Dwarfs that were born from the magots that crawled on Ymir's corpse. The Reptilians equate to such beings as the Italian Orcos and Orchulis, and the Arabs Ghouls and Jinni.

          As what the 1st ed called "Lesser Immortals" and the present edition calls denizens, the Aliens probably worship distinctive aspects of the better known gods.
          I'd be very careful with these kinds of connections. Like, the whole Ancient Aliens thing is a theory that while superficially Neat is a little reductionist, rather imperialist, and a LOT racist. But that's a whole thing I won't dig too deep into, so instead I'll just say this:

          I'm all for aliens in Scion. But I wouldn't attribute any Gods or other legendary being to their presence. Unless like, aliens land and turns out they worship Durga too, that'd be pretty funny. But I wouldn't go around saying "Oh yeah, these Gods, these Denizens, these animal folk? Aliens. Totally." I'd want the aliens to bring their on myth with them, maybe Gods we never imagined. Go really ALIEN with them, rather than going "And the Fae are aliens".

          Also just as an FYI, the Reptilians conspiracy theory, AFAIK, has basically nothing to do with any previous gods and have everything to do with rampant anti-Semetism. So while lizardfolks are fine, making them a massive cabal of all-knowing inhuman monsters who secretly control the world governments as most people refer to 'Reptilians' isn't a take I like to get too close to.


          Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

          Comment


          • #6
            Well, technically, if the Aesir are from Asgard, they are aliens. So any being from another world (or nine) or another dimension (such as a Godrealm) would be an "alien" by definition. It really isn't disrespectful or far-fetched to use the term when referring to such beings ; I've always done it in my campaign. It doen't have to mean "little grey humanoid in a flying saucer."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

              I'd be very careful with these kinds of connections. Like, the whole Ancient Aliens thing is a theory that while superficially Neat is a little reductionist, rather imperialist, and a LOT racist. But that's a whole thing I won't dig too deep into, so instead I'll just say this:

              I'm all for aliens in Scion. But I wouldn't attribute any Gods or other legendary being to their presence. Unless like, aliens land and turns out they worship Durga too, that'd be pretty funny. But I wouldn't go around saying "Oh yeah, these Gods, these Denizens, these animal folk? Aliens. Totally." I'd want the aliens to bring their on myth with them, maybe Gods we never imagined. Go really ALIEN with them, rather than going "And the Fae are aliens".

              Also just as an FYI, the Reptilians conspiracy theory, AFAIK, has basically nothing to do with any previous gods and have everything to do with rampant anti-Semetism. So while lizardfolks are fine, making them a massive cabal of all-knowing inhuman monsters who secretly control the world governments as most people refer to 'Reptilians' isn't a take I like to get too close to.
              I was describing the creatures the "space brothers" get treated as in popular and folk culture. I've heard country western songs from as far back as the 1950s that treat UFOs as signs of the apocalypse and/or angels.

              Folklorists have been comparing "aliens" and cryptids to the fairies for decades. It's nearly a commonplace.

              The powers, attitudes, and other motifs of the reptilians are very much like the Italian and Arab fay I mentioned. It's an unconscious recycling of older tropes.

              I'm not saying that these are the old tales reworked, although I often think that, but the "aliens" of fiction, folk belief, etc. recycle old tropes.

              Comment


              • #8
                I would be very careful on Alien worshipping the same gods, unless you use a Iron/Heroic Theocentric focused on a single pantheon that have mantles in other cultures (including aliens).

                Lets day you have people in alpha Centauri worshiping the Kami, how would they know the Kami if not even the European continent (a few hundred thousand kilometer away) knew them a century or so ago.

                I don’t mean it’s impossible, but... would be weird.

                Anyway, If I were going to run a Scion campaign on space, I would go on a Star Gate approach, but the gods being real (not technology users, but really divine). I would use the pantheons as factions (some closer, some more distant) conquering worlds for worshipers and Legend, and Earth would be one world that were occupied by several pantheons during the history.

                I didn’t think a lot about it, but that would be my general approach of the subject.


                House Rules - The Basics - House Rules for Trinity Continuum
                Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
                Tomes of Inspiration - Rituals and Dark Magic in Fists of Flux

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think it would be easy enough to borrow the Atlantean PSP and Motif to lean into New Gods sufficiently advanced alien options.

                  The Masks is the Mythos book should be hackable to do a much more... alien... alien pantheon.

                  I’ve considered trying my hand at a Planetary Romance “Martian” Pantheon.


                  Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'd follow a harder line; if aliens worship gods, then those gods are alien.
                    Of course this thread now has me imagining a Scion game where first contact happens and the major players on both sides consider the other to be abombinations on par with the Titanmachy.
                    Interstellar holy war on par with the Covenant from Halo on the mundane side, literal alien demigods trying to destroy the Earth pantheons, just as Julius did to the Nementondevos.

                    Though I do agree with Ian Watson; Trinity is right there. Take their alien building rules, create aliens. Then add Scion template


                    Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Astromancer View Post

                      I was describing the creatures the "space brothers" get treated as in popular and folk culture. I've heard country western songs from as far back as the 1950s that treat UFOs as signs of the apocalypse and/or angels.

                      Folklorists have been comparing "aliens" and cryptids to the fairies for decades. It's nearly a commonplace.
                      Shockingly, going "But they've been doing this for decades" in no way sidesteps, erases, or denies the things I noted. That just means that some people have been doing it for like, less than a century?

                      And I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying that you gotta be really effing careful or else you may fall face-first into "Obviously the Pyramids were built by aliens because those primitive brown people could never figure out MATH"

                      The powers, attitudes, and other motifs of the reptilians are very much like the Italian and Arab fay I mentioned. It's an unconscious recycling of older tropes.

                      I'm not saying that these are the old tales reworked, although I often think that, but the "aliens" of fiction, folk belief, etc. recycle old tropes.
                      Okay we may be thinking of different Reptilians in pop culture, let me just list the trappings I'm familiar with. Are you talking about lizard hybrids that:
                      • Have infiltrated/interbred with human bloodlines?
                      • The same bloodlines that coincidentally show up in royal families and influential American lines or as popular figures?
                      • Hide their reptilian features either through skin suits or through a kind of hypnotic psionic hypnosis signal
                      • Through their infiltration work in a secret cabal organizing every aspect of the world governments to usher in a New World Order?
                      Because those may be kind of sort of like these beings that you mentioned by coincidence, but they were mostly very deliberately drawing on VERY anti-Semetic conspiracy theories, dehumanizing Jewish people by making them out to be alien beings (lizardlike monsters that pretend to be human) that control the world governments (harkening to the Zionist Conspiracies). So, no, the modern pop culture Reptilian conspiracies in no way call back to any lizard creatures that may or may not have existed in Italian folklore, but they do VERY DELIBERATELY parrot talking points of anti-Semetic white nationalist dog whistles.

                      Now to make it very explicit: I'm not saying that you're deliberately perpetuating these. These get cloaked just enough so that those on the outside don't recognize them and get perpetuated that way. That's how they sneak this shit into popular consumption without people realizing. That's why it's important to recognize these smokescreens and dogwhistles so that you go "Hey wait a minute-" if someone tries to push them too hard.

                      Also, on the 'They recycle old tropes'... Scion 2e is not a game that's well served by going Campbellian Monomyth. Never was. Never should be. It only gets better when you're NOT going "Yeah y'know what A is B is C" and I think it's massively reductionist and just flat-out wrong to go "Well if you look at the broadest of terms the Greys are Goblins are Nordic Dwarves". They're really not. Like, at all. Unless your definition of all they have in common is "Short".

                      Edit: That got a bit intense. So yes: Aliens. Very much approve. Building them can come from say, persistent Conditions and maybe some situational Enhancement, mixed with custom Paths.
                      Last edited by Kyman201; 05-31-2020, 02:20 AM.


                      Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                        Though I do agree with Ian Watson; Trinity is right there. Take their alien building rules, create aliens. Then add Scion template
                        I'm looking through the book for rules on building aliens but find none. On what page are they?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post

                          I'm looking through the book for rules on building aliens but find none. On what page are they?
                          To be fair; the rules for playable aliens are supposed to be in an upcoming book (Under Alien Suns). Non-Player aliens follow npc rules in the antagonist section...so it isn't much help right now. That said, I expect to get UAS before Demigod gets kickstarted anyway, so I wasn't exactly expecting to rush anyway.
                          Sorry Aristarkos, I didn't mean to mislead you.


                          Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Some playable aliens are in Distant Worlds, but yes, more robust alien-creation rules are in Under Alien Suns.


                            Ian A. A. Watson
                            Onyx Path Community Manager
                            Trinity Continuum Content Lead

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                              Shockingly, going "But they've been doing this for decades" in no way sidesteps, erases, or denies the things I noted. That just means that some people have been doing it for like, less than a century?
                              Read the book "Passport to Magonia." From the 1960s, the UFO believers had it as a commonplace then. I've read, but no longer remember the authors, articles from the late 1950s claiming to show that the "Space Brothers" were simply a reworking of the faeries. I read these in the 1980s in an even then defunct journal of folklore studies. So, I apologize if I was too brusque, but folklore dealing with spirits, fay, ghosts, etc. is one of my things.

                              And I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying that you gotta be really effing careful or else you may fall face-first into "Obviously the Pyramids were built by aliens because those primitive brown people could never figure out MATH"
                              Like Carl Sagan, who championed the theories of Shlovsky, I loathe that racist hack von Däniken. But saying that the "aliens" are the fay doesn't require any of that. From a strictly folkloric point of view, it's simply a new term hooked up with old tropes/stories.

                              Okay we may be thinking of different Reptilians in pop culture, let me just list the trappings I'm familiar with. Are you talking about lizard hybrids that:
                              • Have infiltrated/interbred with human bloodlines?
                              • The same bloodlines that coincidentally show up in royal families and influential American lines or as popular figures?
                              • Hide their reptilian features either through skin suits or through a kind of hypnotic psionic hypnosis signal
                              • Through their infiltration work in a secret cabal organizing every aspect of the world governments to usher in a New World Order?
                              Number three fits well with Orcos, Orchi, Ghuls, and Jinni, all being masters of disguise. Certainly, all of these creatures are malignant tricksters. Kidnapping human women to breed with is also a trope. It's the same old story reworked with conspiracy theories and sci-fi touches.

                              Because those may be kind of sort of like these beings that you mentioned by coincidence, but they were mostly very deliberately drawing on VERY anti-Semetic conspiracy theories, dehumanizing Jewish people by making them out to be alien beings (lizardlike monsters that pretend to be human) that control the world governments (harkening to the Zionist Conspiracies). So, no, the modern pop culture Reptilian conspiracies in no way call back to any lizard creatures that may or may not have existed in Italian folklore, but they do VERY DELIBERATELY parrot talking points of anti-Semetic white nationalist dog whistles.
                              As racism is a pseudoscientific idea it isn't odd that it would get blended in with superstition and malevolent nonsense. When Carl Linnaeus, a deeply racist man, created a human racial classification system, no bigots cared. It was flawed science, but it was science, so they couldn't use it. When the passionately anti-racist Johann Friedrich Blumenbach created a racial classification system to show we all descended from Adam and Eve, therefore, both racism and social class hierarchies were evil, racists jumped on his pseudoscience and ran with it.

                              Now to make it very explicit: I'm not saying that you're deliberately perpetuating these. These get cloaked just enough so that those on the outside don't recognize them and get perpetuated that way. That's how they sneak this shit into popular consumption without people realizing. That's why it's important to recognize these smokescreens and dogwhistles so that you go "Hey wait a minute-" if someone tries to push them too hard.
                              Point taken with respect. Might I suggest you read Strange and Secret Peoples. There is an example of how brutal racism and faerie lore blend in a toxic confection. Nancy Silver, the author, shows how the description of a Baka Chief didn't match the photograph. The Baka are fairly attractive on the whole, and the photograph was of a pleasant looking young man. The description of the photo by the editor of the Times was of a grotesque goblin and in no way matched the photograph. Ms. Silver scoured the Times letter columns for weeks afterward, no one seemed to notice the difference.

                              Much of later 19th early 20th-century antisemitic literature draws on the tropes of goblins and witches to describe and define the Jewish peoples. Any cross-comparison of images of goblins with period images of the Jewish people and you find that as the decades rolled by toward the Holocaust you'll see the two sets of images becoming more alike. Faeries are an "Other" and one group of the "not we" easily gets blended into another. The very dehumanization I hear you objecting to.

                              Also, on the 'They recycle old tropes'... Scion 2e is not a game that's well served by going Campbellian Monomyth. Never was. Never should be. It only gets better when you're NOT going "Yeah y'know what A is B is C" and I think it's massively reductionist and just flat-out wrong to go "Well if you look at the broadest of terms the Greys are Goblins are Nordic Dwarves". They're really not. Like, at all. Unless your definition of all they have in common is "Short".

                              Edit: That got a bit intense. So yes: Aliens. Very much approve. Building them can come from say, persistent Conditions and maybe some situational Enhancement, mixed with custom Paths.
                              Campbell's reputation got trashed because he called out Martin Buber for racism. Frankly, Buber denied that either the Native Americans or the Hindus were capable of real religious feelings. He also sneeringly denied the human equality of the Palestinians. Campbell was right to call him on these things. And were Buber was public and proud in his bigotries, the most they can accuse Campbell of is secret bigotries and reading suspect authors like Nietzsche or Ezra Pound.

                              Moreover I equated the Greys to Norse Dwarves, I didn't claim identity. Vampires and the Gancanagh and the Leanan Sidhe all get lumped together as supernatural beings that drain the life from others, which is a valid comparison. But such a comparison doesn't erase or deny the differences.

                              We clearly have different intellectual backgrounds and experiences. We should share insights and information, not accuse each other of heresy and bigotry.
                              Last edited by Astromancer; 05-31-2020, 02:04 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X