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  • #76
    Judeo-Christian is not a thing. The theology of oWoD in general,present a very Christian view - a maltheist one, but one which is fundamentally concerned with salvation and damnation, concepts which just are not Jewish in any sense. It presents a world of a distant God who cares about faith above all, such that it is, in fact, True Faith which repels vampires. It relies heavily on a fundamentally Christian reading of Biblical stories as it’s foundation for Caine and his backstory, even as it tries to incorporate apocrypha like Enoch. It is comprehensible only through a Christian perspective. An oppositional one, but Christian, because a Jewish perspective simply does not contain the concepts with which oWoD’s take on God is obsessed.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
      Nowhere did I say "go ahead and be a racist, it's okay". What I said was, if you want to stray from the myths as written/told, at your table, no-one should be telling you that you can't.
      No, what you specifically said, in response to people pointing out the many unfortunate implications of a lot of WtA's fluff, was "In the end, it's a game, not a sociology/theology lesson, and if you are running something that is fun, creative, and non-offensive to your group, how is that badwrongfun?" and if you come to a public forum stating that just because people in a group have no problem with something, it should not be a problem for anyone, which is patently ridiculous, then people should absolutely be telling you you can't; if I knew a group of people had gotten together to plan on how to rob me for kicks you can bet your ass neither my absence at that event nor their present enjoyment would be a barrier to my anger at it. (and before someone points out that playing games hurts no one, I would like to reiterate that cultural misconceptions gained while playing do not stop becoming harmful just because they're done in play).

      Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
      If I have something in my story where two of the Hindu gods get divorced, is that "wrong" because it is against Hindu tradition and culture? If I have a group (say, of Werewolves) that has a particular view of other faiths that is shaped by their own propaganda and, perhaps, misunderstanding, is that wrong?
      The bonds of marriage between several Deva couples is sacred to the followers of the religion and having them be broken would, indeed, be a travesty to a lot of us - so yeah, don't do it, unless you have a good plan for bringing them back together later (which has happened); as for in universe prejudices, sure, go wild, but ensure that both the players and characters understand the fallacy of this viewpoint, as Wopsle suggested several posts ago.

      Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
      No, don't sit and play games that glorify racism, or treat First Nations as "ignorant savages", but you shouldn't have to exhaustively research a culture or faith before you can include it in your game, just in case you get some details wrong and offend/upset someone.
      If you're using one of the core or fan made Pantheons, then the onus is on the writers to see that they educate you through their work enough that you can avoid pitfalls, but if you are going to include a new Pantheon, or write up a wholly foreign one (as is being done here) then hell yes you absolutely should do exhaustive research before you include them... one would expect that was the minimum courtesy you would extend to that culture.

      Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
      "It's just a game" means that you are trying to tell a story that is fun and interesting, not that you are re-telling oral Irish/Coast Salish/Norse history for your players. if you are playing Scion, you probably don't belong to the cultures that will be used in your games. Does that mean "don't play anything that isn't your native faith"?
      Hardly... the author of the Deva section is neither Hindu nor, as far as I am aware, of Indian descent, but his section has been praised as one of the best written in the whole book, so I don't see where this idea that you can only portray characters from the same faith as you comes from (possibly because no one actually seems to read it, because I don't know how anyone goes into that deeply nuanced look at the Gods and comes out with 'fanatic Titan killers')... but that section is beautiful because of the research and genuine excitement that went into it... by all means, borrow my pants for a while and see how you look in them, but please do me the courtesy of not shitting in them while you're wearing them.

      Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
      Can I not play "Legend of the Five Rings" if I'm not Japanese, or at least hustorically educated and culturally sensitive?
      Again, I would hope that the writers did the research for you (I've seen their take on Astra and thoroughly approve by the way) so I would not say you need to be historically educated to run it... but I do expect you to be culturally sensitive at all times, not just when playing L5R.
      Last edited by Samudra; 07-30-2020, 12:25 PM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
        Nowhere did I say "go ahead and be a racist, it's okay". What I said was, if you want to stray from the myths as written/told, at your table, no-one should be telling you that you can't. If I have something in my story where two of the Hindu gods get divorced, is that "wrong" because it is against Hindu tradition and culture? If I have a group (say, of Werewolves) that has a particular view of other faiths that is shaped by their own propaganda and, perhaps, misunderstanding, is that wrong? No, don't sit and play games that glorify racism, or treat First Nations as "ignorant savages", but you shouldn't have to exhaustively research a culture or faith before you can include it in your game, just in case you get some details wrong and offend/upset someone. "It's just a game" means that you are trying to tell a story that is fun and interesting, not that you are re-telling oral Irish/Coast Salish/Norse history for your players. if you are playing Scion, you probably don't belong to the cultures that will be used in your games. Does that mean "don't play anything that isn't your native faith"? Can I not play "Legend of the Five Rings" if I'm not Japanese, or at least hustorically educated and culturally sensitive?
        On one hand, your example of "What if I do a game where two of the Deva are divorced?" Isn't a good example because the marital fidelity between the Trimurti and the Tridevi is cosmologically important in many of the Hinduisms.

        On the other hand, it's a good example to point at and go "No see that has implications you probably were unaware of"

        You're right in that you shouldn't need a PhD to play something. And that there's no real true single canon of mythology. However there are tendencies and trends that hold true, and while it's not reasonable to expect all players to put in ten thousand hours of research to get it right, I expect some research to be done by the writers of the game line to give you something to base it on. And in some cases writers of a game line put in something really unacceptable, like Shiva's writeup in 1e.

        And no you didn't explicitly say "It's okay to be racist of your players aren't offended", you just asked if it was badwrongfun to take some liberties if they're not offensive to your group. Which, like many topics that people like to dismiss, is nowhere near as simple as a cut and dry Yes or No.

        Is having Durga Incarnate as a bartender giving life advice to people who need it, including performing a Visitation in the process, something I can back up by pointing at a Hindu legend and showing where she served alcohol to Indra while giving him life advise? No. But it didn't do anything to cast Durga as grossly out of character, nor did I do something I knew wouldn't be acceptable to a practicing Hindu just because none of my players would catch me.

        Because none of us are doing something as basic as "Hey you have Ares using a sword from the wrong era you see the xipha wasn't in use until-"

        Most of the ones advising caution were going "Hey just FYI there's some racist shit in the material you're basing this write-up on, may want to change that" and then in comes the "It'S jUsT a GaMe" crew, as if it being a game in any way counters or absolves anything

        Edit: And I just realized that I was Ninja'd by Samudra, who did it much more thoroughly.
        Last edited by Kyman201; 07-30-2020, 12:17 PM.


        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by MorsRattus View Post
          Judeo-Christian is not a thing. The theology of oWoD in general,present a very Christian view - a maltheist one, but one which is fundamentally concerned with salvation and damnation, concepts which just are not Jewish in any sense. It presents a world of a distant God who cares about faith above all, such that it is, in fact, True Faith which repels vampires. It relies heavily on a fundamentally Christian reading of Biblical stories as it’s foundation for Caine and his backstory, even as it tries to incorporate apocrypha like Enoch. It is comprehensible only through a Christian perspective. An oppositional one, but Christian, because a Jewish perspective simply does not contain the concepts with which oWoD’s take on God is obsessed.
          Caine is not going to an afterlife, though. Caine is the subject of physical Biblical vengeance and curses, which the Jewish God is prone to handing out.

          The punishment of the following figures out of hand:

          * Adam and Eve
          * Sodom and Gamorah
          * The Flood
          * Ham
          * Saul

          Bluntly, also, the issue of "Faith" is also something that God has repeatedly referenced to and dealt with in regards to the Jewish People turning their backs on him and betraying the Covenant.

          Which is....bluntly....about keeping faith with God.

          Also the idea of the Sheol as the only fate for mortals is something that does not remain the only Jewish afterlife handle: Allow an Israeli publication to explain:

          https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.prem...like-1.5362876

          1. As much is clearly stated in the Book of Daniel, which purports to be written during the Babylonian Exile, but was really written during the Maccabean Revolt: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (12:2).

          2. The Sadducees, the prominent priestly class who ran the Temple, did not believe in an afterlife, nor in the resurrection of the dead, Josephus writes. Meanwhile, their counterparts and adversaries, the Pharisees, an elite of experts in Jewish law, believed in both.

          3. Once the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE, the Sadducees and their theology were lost, and the Pharisees and their conception of the afterlife became mainstream rabbinical Judaism.

          4. In Eruvin 19b, we are told that all but the most wicked are sent to Gehenom (a fiery place, according to Berakhot 57b), but their stay in the flames is temporary. After being purged of their sins, they are ushered to Heaven by Abraham.

          5. Elsewhere (Rosh Hashanah 17a), the torments of Hell are said to be temporary for most sinners - but instead of ending in Heaven, they end in nonexistence.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-30-2020, 12:07 PM.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #80
            Faith is being used in multiple senses here. I am talking about belief as opposed to practice - and belief over practice is a Christian thing. The keeping of faith in the terms you’re discussing is about deeds and actions, not belief. The Messianic bodily resurrection is not at all like a Christian afterlife, and concepts of salvation or damnation are again not part of it in the way they are for Christianity. Vampire fundamentally is about the idea of the damned trying to escape their state, replacing Hell with vampiric existence in a very direct way.

            But please, do try to explain my religion to me.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by MorsRattus View Post
              Faith is being used in multiple senses here. I am talking about belief as opposed to practice - and belief over practice is a Christian thing. The keeping of faith in the terms you’re discussing is about deeds and actions, not belief. The Messianic bodily resurrection is not at all like a Christian afterlife, and concepts of salvation or damnation are again not part of it in the way they are for Christianity. Vampire fundamentally is about the idea of the damned trying to escape their state, replacing Hell with vampiric existence in a very direct way.

              But please, do try to explain my religion to me.
              I'm not trying to explain your religion to you. I'm drawing a parallel between the fact that Caine is a individual cursed with a physical condition and that is an inescapable one.

              Hence why I used a Jewish source on the subject.

              I feel too many individuals attempt to approach Vampire from a Christian lens and that it misses much of its nuance that way. I feel like Wraith might actually benefit from moving away from its Greek themes to a more Jewish interpretation..


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #82
                A Haredi source. Haredi or Ultraorthodox Judaism is, a, not the majority view of Judaism, and b, not something that the writers of Vampire would even be considering, even before we get into your fundamental misinterpretation of "faith" in Jewish terms or the degree to which this is presented a very biased viewpoint pushing a specific Haredi interpretation. People approach Vampire from a Christian lens because it is written with one. It is not written with a Jewish lens even slightly.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by MorsRattus View Post
                  A Haredi source. Haredi or Ultraorthodox Judaism is, a, not the majority view of Judaism, and b, not something that the writers of Vampire would even be considering, even before we get into your fundamental misinterpretation of "faith" in Jewish terms or the degree to which this is presented a very biased viewpoint pushing a specific Haredi interpretation. People approach Vampire from a Christian lens because it is written with one. It is not written with a Jewish lens even slightly.
                  I feel that since it is a Jewish story that forms the basis and set thousands of years before Jesus that it is actually relevant but if you're not convinced, I'll drop it.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #84
                    Interpretation matters. Christianity takes many Jewish stories and vastly reinterprets them in ways that do not resemble anything Jewish. The Old Testament is not the Tanakh. Vampire's interpretation of Caine is exceptionally Christian, and is based heavily in Christian interpretations. It bears exactly zero resemblance to any Jewish interpretation of the Cain and Abel story.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Samudra View Post
                      No, I am outraged at the first paragraph you had written about nationalism and implying that being sensitive to cultures is akin to using mythology for propaganda, when the actual propaganda was done by the writers appropriating it, not the cultures.

                      I am outraged at the idea that anyone here was implying there be one one true depiction, when we were actually arguing against an unfounded depiction by those outside the community the myths belong to.

                      I am outraged by the idea that you seem to think that these stories are free fodder for use in satirical narratives to begin with when they are not.

                      I am outraged at the idea that you think everyone should have shared ownership of cultures whose members are still treated like absolute shit, and that this is somehow comparable to the use of Christian (and specifically Christian and not Abrahamic since Jewish and Muslim traditions get appropriated and misused all the time) material in media.

                      I am outraged that despite earlier points about how fantasy portrayals are just as harmful as supposedly realistic ones, you seem to think that use of these figures in mediums known to be fantasy excuses them, and then invoke the name of an author who has publicly apologized for treating the Theoi as a dead faith and another author who should absolutely be criticized for his portrayals of Native myth.

                      I'm outraged that you think "the problems with Werewolf aren't presenting that the myths of Native Americans differently, it's presenting them as if they were fact in RL" when no, the problems are that the portrayal was done badly and without consultation at all, because a thousand disclaimers of 'these aren't real Native Americans' will not change the fact that they are being coded as such.

                      So yeah, I don't think we agree quite as much as you seem to think.
                      I will always support the freedom to use the imagination. It seems to me that you are so into "sensitivity" you'd freely kick any and all basic human rights to the curb. Now I get why hate speech is evil. As a somewhat fem bisexual working class man from West Virginia trust me I've been the target of plenty of hate speech. Being a white guy with an education I've certainly been told I am the oppressor (by a Wealthy Hispanic Woman from a family that has been wealthy since the King of Spain granted them lands in New Mexico no less, I didn't bow when we met, I kid you not, she was old money to the max). I've plenty of experience of being bullied by college kids with "sensitivity" quick to gang up on a working class guy with Asperger's. (Side note, I am on the Left, if I were European I'd be voting socialist).
                      So I find people demanding vast restrictions on free speach because of "sensitivity'" suspicious at best.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                        I will always support the freedom to use the imagination. It seems to me that you are so into "sensitivity" you'd freely kick any and all basic human rights to the curb. Now I get why hate speech is evil. As a somewhat fem bisexual working class man from West Virginia trust me I've been the target of plenty of hate speech. Being a white guy with an education I've certainly been told I am the oppressor (by a Wealthy Hispanic Woman from a family that has been wealthy since the King of Spain granted them lands in New Mexico no less, I didn't bow when we met, I kid you not, she was old money to the max). I've plenty of experience of being bullied by college kids with "sensitivity" quick to gang up on a working class guy with Asperger's. (Side note, I am on the Left, if I were European I'd be voting socialist).
                        So I find people demanding vast restrictions on free speach because of "sensitivity'" suspicious at best.
                        ...

                        Dude. Like...

                        Okay hold up, lets break this down.

                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                        I will always support the freedom to use the imagination. It seems to me that you are so into "sensitivity" you'd freely kick any and all basic human rights to the curb.
                        So, you are accusing another poster of being wiling to "kick any and all basic human rights to the curb" because they think that being respectful to other cultures is important. That is a frankly uncharitable leap of logic and entirely incorrect. You have taken another poster being outraged about this to infer that they would violate basic human rights which include: enslave people (Article 4 of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights), torture people (Article 5), ignore someone's personhood before the law (Article 6), arbitrarily arrest or detain or exile people (Article 9). Like, right off the bat, this is absolutely absurd and incredibly unfair. Seriously Astromancer, the degree to which that as an accusation is grotesquely inappropriate is absurd.

                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                        Now I get why hate speech is evil. As a somewhat fem bisexual working class man from West Virginia trust me I've been the target of plenty of hate speech. Being a white guy with an education I've certainly been told I am the oppressor (by a Wealthy Hispanic Woman from a family that has been wealthy since the King of Spain granted them lands in New Mexico no less, I didn't bow when we met, I kid you not, she was old money to the max).
                        This is an interesting collection of facts. I don't see how they are even vaguely connected to your argument. I know for a fact a good number of the people who are in this discussion are members of the LGBTQ community who live in oppressive places. It is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. And with your education you should be aware that yourself, just as myself as an AMAB white person, benefit from a large scale socitial system that oppresses other people. I recognize this and if I were told it by the wind or a ruling monarch I would agree. I entirely fail to understand the relevance of this as part of your argument. Just because we are part of a minority doesn't mean we can't also make mistakes and be unfair and engage in discriminatory or oppressive behaviors. As you said, you are a bisexual man. I am sure you have faced Bi Erasure from members of the LGBTQ community or seen it happen just as I have. Those people are part of a minority as well, but they have been able to do things that are in turn unfair to others.

                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                        I've plenty of experience of being bullied by college kids with "sensitivity" quick to gang up on a working class guy with Asperger's.
                        Again, I don't see the relevance of this. I am absolutely heartbroken to hear that you have been bullied, nobody deserves to be bullied or mistreated or treated in a way they find uncomfortable. However, I don't understand how this could be relevant to this discussion unless you are suggesting that Samudra here has some sort of ability to discern your economic class and Aspherger's diagnosis through text. Perhaps you and Samudra know each other personally and this is part of wider issues you two have had in person, as otherwise I don't understand why you would throw this out here.

                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                        (Side note, I am on the Left, if I were European I'd be voting socialist).
                        Relevance?

                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                        So I find people demanding vast restrictions on free speach because of "sensitivity'" suspicious at best.
                        Free Speech is a governmental body limiting the speech of a person. If Samudra is secretly somehow an entire sentient national consciousness or an Absolutist Monarch, this could be in fact correct. I don't think he is though. It is not a free speech issue for someone to say that they take issue with what someone is saying or how they are saying.

                        But seriously, to come back around to it: Astomancer, you accused someone on the forums for a Tabletop Roleplaying Game of being willing to violate human rights which includes enslaving and torturing people because they're opposed to something. Mate. That's not cool.


                        Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                        The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann, The Zemi: The Pantheon of the Taíno People(s).

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                        • #87
                          *putting on mod hat*

                          Guys this is a very sensitive and importnat topic but please keep in mind to respect other posters and keep a civil tone.



                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Astromancer View Post

                            I will always support the freedom to use the imagination. It seems to me that you are so into "sensitivity" you'd freely kick any and all basic human rights to the curb. Now I get why hate speech is evil. As a somewhat fem bisexual working class man from West Virginia trust me I've been the target of plenty of hate speech. Being a white guy with an education I've certainly been told I am the oppressor (by a Wealthy Hispanic Woman from a family that has been wealthy since the King of Spain granted them lands in New Mexico no less, I didn't bow when we met, I kid you not, she was old money to the max). I've plenty of experience of being bullied by college kids with "sensitivity" quick to gang up on a working class guy with Asperger's. (Side note, I am on the Left, if I were European I'd be voting socialist).
                            So I find people demanding vast restrictions on free speach because of "sensitivity'" suspicious at best.
                            Did you seriously just accuse someone of wanting to trample on human rights just because they’re rightfully offending by offensive material? Isn’t that literally breaking the “no personal attacks rule”?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Charles, listen astromancer here is being very insensitive abd rude. I think you should ban him from.this thread,i don't want a lenghty discussion

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                              • #90
                                I figured it would be good to do a warning first. To be aware that at the end of the day we're discussing the magical world of make believe's handling of RL religion.

                                If it turns into RL insults after this points or accusations of evil then they can leave the thread or I'll shut it down.

                                Honestly, there are some personal attacks here and rules broken but I'm being somewhat more lenient than I should be here.

                                Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-30-2020, 10:44 PM.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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