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  • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

    Okay you want something a bit more specific?

    Maybe don't use a Patron literally called Wendigo. Because it doesn't take MUCH research to learn that the wendigo is a very serious monster to the culture that these stories come from, and is probably not something you would make anything other than a terrible antagonist, at best a tragic one. Oh look at that, I did a bit of research despite not being from any of the First Nations. If you want to keep the patron, change the name and completely divorce them from the concept. Or remove the patron entirely. It's basic manners.


    Because, as you note, it's a complicated subject, there is no SINGULAR line. That kind of "Where's the line?" rhetoric is usually a smokescreen used by insincere people to try and obfuscate when they're being insensitive assholes. Broad universal statements aren't going to apply because much of this comes down to context.

    But you want a line? Here's a line: If a cultural group has gone out and said "You got this all wrong and we would prefer you stop this" you fucking stop that. This isn't rocket surgery, it's basic respect. And you definitely don't keep repeating the stuff that they spoke up against, and when someone points out that hey this is kind of Not Cool, you don't shrug and go "Well that's how it was done in the past". That's never an acceptable excuse.

    Variations happen. You can play a bit within reason. Take some spins. But some things are going too far. I'm not going to write a story where Brahma beats Sarasvati. I'm not going to run a game where I say that Indra, Zeus, and Horus are the same God in different hats. I'm not going to run a game where Cortez is a Scion of Quetzacoatl and implicitly blessing the Spanish invasion of the Americas.

    You know, basic decency. Basic manners. Basic respect. I'm sorry if that's too much of an ask.
    If you read the gameline you would understand they address things from the outside the human perspective and subverts the expectations. Werewolf is a game where you play sacred Monsters. Hence why Fenris a godbeast of the Apocalypse is shown from the perspective of Fenris, pointing out what if the legend was inaccurate because they didn't know the point of view of Fenris, who even in the stories is a character of tragedy, he was judged and sentenced without committing a crime, only because he was a fierce potential threat. Wendigo is a sacred monster as well, it was a spirit that scourges mankind for the taboo of cannibalism, because in the North Cannibalism was a serious threat when people run out of food and thus it was important to have stories to condemn it. In Werewolf the original totem was Sasquatch, and in the Lore of the game the crossing of the great strait to the Americas changed that aspect of Sasquatch into Wendigo, they serve a crucial role in punishing taboos and being sacred monsters, but they also walk a fine line because eating human flesh is against the Litany and its hinted at that maybe Wendigo will fall or maybe Wendigo won't fall, but there are corrupt Wendigo spirits and non corrupt ones. It is like the Devil Tigers Dharma there are Devils that discourage people from the path of inequity by tempting others and those who fall for temptation are punished as an example. World of Darkness is not black and white it is gray, and you do a disservice to crap on games when you aren't a fan of them and haven't read their books but make erroneous assumptions and judge others based on these assumptions. And it would be simpler to be humble and try apologizing rather then double down and try to demonize other posters.


    You can't call someone insincere, you aren't reading their mind, that in itself is a personal attack, you have condemned people for much less.

    Cultural groups are not Monoliths I've spoken to people who have stories of Wendigo from their grandparents, and their grandparents would avoid saying the name but would not outright say it is forbidden to refer to the Wendigo. Wendigo and Skinwalkers are not the only beings there are taboos against talking about, many sacred stories in general, like Nunnehi and the like are avoided because there thought to be no need to talk about these things with outsiders, sacred tales of creation were more freely talked about, but its ultimately not a solid line. Aboriginal Tribes in Australia did this as well, and would sometimes tell purposely false tales to better aid in keeping secrets. But you don't speak for a continent of people, even individual communities only speak for themselves. Either don't do a Manitou pantheon or do not complain if they are used.

    And honestly it is less insulting in stories that specifically admit that they are different from the real world because of things like secret histories because there is a layer of separation that you do not get when you try to do a one for one simulation of a subject. Malcom Shepard has talked about this when doing Dragons of the East. A lot of Buddhist stories fit really well into mage, but he felt it would do a disservice to handle it in that way, he grew up buddhist, and so he added a layer of of reconceptualizing for the setting rather then just saying the Buddhist Jatakas and parables are all true and exactly how it handled.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • Originally posted by Magicjohnny View Post
      Also it should be noted that the Manitou pantheon was written with the help of members of the Algonquin people, and the writer is himself a Native, Lakota specifically and friends with members of the Algonquin who he called upon to help with the project. So it’s not really disrespectful, because it was made with the help and assistance of the people the topic is important to. It also helps a lot that it doesn’t perpetuate harmful stereotypes of Native peoples
      Yes I am aware, and Mage 20 also made a lot of attempts at handling things in a similar manner, but again Native Americans are not a monolith, you can't just say if I get "insert minority here" then I can speak for the whole group, it just means an attempt was made to handle things respectfully and with fidelity.

      And and there have been bullying of those that aren't minorities, that is the insinuation that well Astromancer is white he isn't allowed to speak his opinion on a subject whether it is broad or narrow because he disagrees with people that outnumber him. the same thing happened to another guy in an older thread about an alternate setting with Greek Roman gods taking over. And several minorities here are ignored or assumptions are cast on them if they do not agree. I've talked with other brown people born on another continent and its insulting when you assume someone is European/White/North American because they disagree with you, especially when its a white posters calling a minority poster white inaccurately.

      This forum has literally gatekeeped people away because if someone disagrees or if someone is a new poster they are mobbed and insulted and false flagged.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
        Because people here constantly bully others who dare to disagree with them here. I am pointing out the fallacy in the logic here. And if you guys don't get CTPhips you will try to go over his head and get Mods that agree with you to contradict him. The rules are simple don't thread crap. If you don't like the idea of this thread then don't thread crap just don't interact with it. You are insulting and mudslinging someone, and when someone points it out you accuse that person of breaking the rules. This is why ideally we have mod arbitration, because you can't just dogpile on someone you disagree with. If you don't like the basic premise of this thread you are not allowed to dogpile it. He says you would freely kick human rights to the curb because in his opinion you would. You can't selectively just declare your insults as not insulting because its true, but who you are disagreeing with is "objectively wrong" so they are insulting. How is this not gatekeeping? If the logic here is Werewolf is wrong, then why aren't you trying to cancel it? By the time we reach revised and W20 they fixed things, there is rich lore, and if someone wants to do a game like that its their right. You can't try to ban people because they disagree with you. You can't ban Astromancer when he is actually engaging with the original poster of the thread and you guys are engaging negatively with the very premise of the thread. This happens all the time here and it is not right. People here bully people for not being minorities but then turn around and bully minorities for not agreeing with them, that is inappropriate. Doing a Manitou Pantheon is just as sacrilegious as other games touching upon the same topics.
        I'm sorry you are feeling bullied, Eldagusto. I mean to criticise ideas here, not people, and I didn't want you to feel personally attacked by what I said.

        Nonetheless, I have to say that you are, for whatever reason and note that I am just stating my assessment, not accusing you of ill intentions, grieveously misrepresenting the facts here. It was neither Watcher nor Samudra nor Kyman nor Magicjohnny nor I who started to derail this thread. Critian Caceorte presented a project for feedback. They were given feedback, varied feedback by a number of people. Some of that feedback was based on ethical issues in the project as Critian Caceorte presented it, and the derailing started, in my opinion, here, where ethical concerns began to be rejected by a group of Forum users out of hand. None of this, nor the discussion that ensued about ethical issues in general, was bullying, especially not of Critian Caceorte themselves, who has, as all the detractors of Samudra etc. seem to ignore, happily accepted the feedback they were given.

        I'm not sure what you mean by "not getting" CTP; that part of the discussion is still confusing to me, but my ultimate impression was that they overall agree with my position, so even if I were so intrigant as to call upon Mod after Mod until someone does what I want, that would not be necessary in this situation. So I'm not surewhat this line is about.

        I can't speak on the general issues you raise here, the "bullying" and "gatekeeping," since I'm not on the Forums much anymore, but at least on this thread, that is not the impression I got. The only call for a ban of Astromancer came from Nicolas; that was Nicolas's only post in the thread, and it doesn't reflect on others who have themselves not voiced that call. I will, however, say that I agree with Watcher and Magicjohnny that Astromancer's accusation that Samudra is "violating any and all human rights" (i.e., as Watcher explained, advocating slavery, torture etc.) is both inaccurate and way out of line. Comments like that are, in fact, a case for the Mods, and I see no offense in notifying those about this.

        Lastly, on your claim that the Anishinaabeg Pantheon is sacrilegous in and off itself, I'm not qualified to judge that, since I'm neither Anishinaabe nor an expert on Native North American issues. From your statement, however, I'd wager that neither are you. What I can say is that the Manitou were written by a Native American writer (though not Anishinaabe) in close cooperation with his Anishinaabeg associates, so I think it is the safest playable option of this mythology that we can think of. And this is really all this is about. This is what the ominous "we" you invoke want: A game that is both respectful and fun, that allows us to have fun that doesn't go on another's expense. Scion 2e, by and large, provides that, especially if you look up your details. WtA does not, which is why the initial ethical feedback was offered, since treating the most horrible monster and highest expression of evil in a culture as a fun, harmless patron to play servants of is, in fact, neither respectful nor fun. It is the closest anything mentioned in this thread comes to bullying, namely the bullying of a discriminated group that has suffered genocide by parodying their sacred beliefs.

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        • When has anyone been falsely flagged?

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          • People have been false flagged for disagreeing, and under dubious pretenses punished for actions other people have done to them. I'm not going to get into it, I disagree with the actions taken and I feel there was an abuse of power by the powers that be due to biases of friendship and mutual dislike of different individuals.

            Originally posted by Sacerdos View Post

            I'm sorry you are feeling bullied, Eldagusto. I mean to criticise ideas here, not people, and I didn't want you to feel personally attacked by what I said.

            Nonetheless, I have to say that you are, for whatever reason and note that I am just stating my assessment, not accusing you of ill intentions, grieveously misrepresenting the facts here. It was neither Watcher nor Samudra nor Kyman nor Magicjohnny nor I who started to derail this thread. Critian Caceorte presented a project for feedback. They were given feedback, varied feedback by a number of people. Some of that feedback was based on ethical issues in the project as Critian Caceorte presented it, and the derailing started, in my opinion, here, where ethical concerns began to be rejected by a group of Forum users out of hand. None of this, nor the discussion that ensued about ethical issues in general, was bullying, especially not of Critian Caceorte themselves, who has, as all the detractors of Samudra etc. seem to ignore, happily accepted the feedback they were given.

            I'm not sure what you mean by "not getting" CTP; that part of the discussion is still confusing to me, but my ultimate impression was that they overall agree with my position, so even if I were so intrigant as to call upon Mod after Mod until someone does what I want, that would not be necessary in this situation. So I'm not surewhat this line is about.

            I can't speak on the general issues you raise here, the "bullying" and "gatekeeping," since I'm not on the Forums much anymore, but at least on this thread, that is not the impression I got. The only call for a ban of Astromancer came from Nicolas; that was Nicolas's only post in the thread, and it doesn't reflect on others who have themselves not voiced that call. I will, however, say that I agree with Watcher and Magicjohnny that Astromancer's accusation that Samudra is "violating any and all human rights" (i.e., as Watcher explained, advocating slavery, torture etc.) is both inaccurate and way out of line. Comments like that are, in fact, a case for the Mods, and I see no offense in notifying those about this.

            Lastly, on your claim that the Anishinaabeg Pantheon is sacrilegous in and off itself, I'm not qualified to judge that, since I'm neither Anishinaabe nor an expert on Native North American issues. From your statement, however, I'd wager that neither are you. What I can say is that the Manitou were written by a Native American writer (though not Anishinaabe) in close cooperation with his Anishinaabeg associates, so I think it is the safest playable option of this mythology that we can think of. And this is really all this is about. This is what the ominous "we" you invoke want: A game that is both respectful and fun, that allows us to have fun that doesn't go on another's expense. Scion 2e, by and large, provides that, especially if you look up your details. WtA does not, which is why the initial ethical feedback was offered, since treating the most horrible monster and highest expression of evil in a culture as a fun, harmless patron to play servants of is, in fact, neither respectful nor fun. It is the closest anything mentioned in this thread comes to bullying, namely the bullying of a discriminated group that has suffered genocide by parodying their sacred beliefs.

            I have no problem with you Sacerdos, I don't feel you have wronged me. I do feel there are disagreements, and Astromancer disagreeing with people is in no way grounds for banning him, this is the bullying and gatekeeping I am talking about. Scion, and a few other corners of the forum, has a reputation of being an "old boys club" and if people don't want to grovel or kiss the ring they will be acted upon.

            But the original poster was asking about their idea, and the feedback presented was your fun is wrong and you shouldn't play your way, play our way or else you are wicked. That is elitist. Your points were made you don't like the Posters idea, great, let other people who want to engage with it engage with it. And again the game Parodies all these sacred beliefs, by different peoples estimation. If plenty of people aren't offended by something but even one person is offended how do you handle it? Can I say I don't mind if a Golem is used, or Aswangs, or Hungry Ghosts or Archangels because they represent my cultural roots, but another person doesn't want them used at all my opinion is invalidated?


            It is a time for great deeds!

            Comment


            • Well, I'm sorry but clearly we've passed the point of discussion and are now just trying to discuss who did what. That is where unfortunately, I must now close this thread.

              Don't take it personal anyone but this happens and it's my fault for letting it get here.

              No personal attacks, ever.


              Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-31-2020, 05:01 AM.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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