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'Once and Future' Speculations

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  • #16
    Perhaps purchase the book from a used bookstore if you must, because MZB's daughter did come out and make very clear that her mother was involved in sexually abusing her and other children for years.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but that's definitely not on my 'suggested Arthurian media' list. There is at least one very clear depiction of a child being raped under the auspices of a pagan ritual in the book.

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    • #17
      I wonder if good ol merlin will show up

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      • #18
        Demigod book mentions Arthur as one ALMOST getting to Godhood? Interesting would be to read on that in terms of Scion...


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
          I wonder if good ol merlin will show up
          I'd expect at the very least a biography and Merlin statted up as a Guide. Maybe take a moment to talk about just how many backstories Merlin has. There's probably been quite a few people who went by Merlin. If I were on the writing team I'd probably say he's a Sorcerer, and depending on how far Saints and Monsters is in development I may go "For full Sorcerer rules see Saints and Monsters"


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          • #20
            That sounds very plausible!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

              I'd expect at the very least a biography and Merlin statted up as a Guide. Maybe take a moment to talk about just how many backstories Merlin has. There's probably been quite a few people who went by Merlin. If I were on the writing team I'd probably say he's a Sorcerer, and depending on how far Saints and Monsters is in development I may go "For full Sorcerer rules see Saints and Monsters"

              As some portrayals give Merlyn supernatural parentage, I wouldn't ruleout a Scion created Mantle floating around as well. Maybe Sorcerers will have a way to at least temporarily harness Mantles through ritual emulation. Seems plausible.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Spider View Post
                Perhaps purchase the book from a used bookstore if you must, because MZB's daughter did come out and make very clear that her mother was involved in sexually abusing her and other children for years.
                Yeah. About ten years ago, I decided to correct the fact that I'd really not read any of the mass of Arthurian inspired fiction out there, and Mists of Avalon is really the only major/well known one I didn't read just because I could never find it at my local used bookstore. (This was even before I heard about the allegations against her.)

                As for other stuff:

                I have some vague recollections of seeing Disney's The Sword and the Stone as a kid in the very early 80s, but my biggest memory of being exposed to Arthurian myth as a kid was seeing John Boorman's Excalibur on TV. Even though a fair bit of it went over my head, it was still visually striking enough to leave an impact. (A few years later, Sword of the Valiant was on TV at my grandparents' house one Sunday afternoon, but we had to leave to go home right after Sean Connery's Green Knight puts his head back on after Gawain cut it off, and it took me nearly two decades to finally find out what movie that was and find it for rent so I could actually see the end of it.) I also remember enjoying reading Prince Valiant each week in the Sunday newspaper comic strips. (Newspapers are these things that people used to get on a regular basis for ... never mind.)

                My decision to start playing catch up with Arthurian fiction was sparked by my late aunt (the other major reader in the family) giving me a copy of Mary Stewart's Merlin Trilogy (The Crystal Cave, The Hollow Hills, and The Last Enchantment), which are really good and I do recommend them, as well as her follow up book about Mordred, The Wicked Day.

                Bernard Cornwell's The Warlord Chronicles (Winter King, Enemy of God, and Excalibur) are a good read, but try to stay very grounded in reality and Britain's immediate post-Roman history, including the idea of "Arthur" as a member of a Mithraic mystery cult. If anyone ever wondered what an Iron level take on Camelot for Scion might look like, it's good inspiration.

                TH White's The Once and Future King is also a good read, especially as you get to contrast Arthur as a kid verses as an adult. (Really, given Disney's recent obsession with remaking their animated films into big budget showcases - with mixed success - I'm kind of surprised trying to turn this into a Lord of the Rings style trilogy hasn't happened yet.)

                Camelot 3000 was an early 80s comic miniseries by Mike W. Barr and Brian Bolland, in which Arthur awakens in the year 3000 to help defend Earth from an alien invasion. Several other characters are also returned, some in new incarnations, including Sir Triston (of Triston & Isolde fame) now as a woman, with his-now-her relationship with the reborn (and still female) Isolde being part of the overall story arc.

                Other stuff that's good for ideas of about Arthur and company being reincarnated in the modern day include Matt Wagner's Mage: The Hero Discovered, Tim Powers's The Drawing of the Dark, Bernard Malamud's The Natural and its film adaption, Terry Gilliam's The Fisher King, and George Romero's Knightriders. And more strangely, the somewhat failed 90s cartoon/toy franchise King Arthur & The Knights of Justice.

                Incidentally, Sir Kay is my favorite Arthurian character, because in spite of his various flaws, he is fiercely and eternally loyal to his foster brother. The fact that there's a theory he may have originally been meant to be Cu Chulainn only makes him cooler in my opinion.





                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                • #23
                  And if it salves anyone's conscience, MZB has been dead for a couple of decades. So, buying her books doesn't support her. (Hopefully the money goes to her daughter, if there's any justice in the world.)

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                  • #24
                    Has anyone here read the delightful "To the Chapel Perilous"? It's not only a solid Arthurian fantasy it's a great satire on the press. You've got a Pict (he's painted blue) and a very "Margret Murray" witch who work for the British papers in an otherwise medieval Britain. The multiple aspects of the Grail are a major theme. Like Twain's "Connecticut Yankee," the satire comes at you fast but then the story becomes dark and emotional.

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                    • #25
                      I'd also bring up the Fate/ series from Japan (Fate/stay night, Fate/Grand Order, etc.), most famous for gender-flipping Arthur and Mordred (and Gareth), but also drawing on more of the high-powered supernatural elements from the original Arthurian works, and doing deep explorations of Camelot and its fall.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Florin View Post
                        And if it salves anyone's conscience, MZB has been dead for a couple of decades. So, buying her books doesn't support her. (Hopefully the money goes to her daughter, if there's any justice in the world.)
                        At the risk of derailing the thread, why is everyone so certain she’s guilty? I don’t want to defend a child molester, but at the same time I don’t want to condemn someone without evidence either.

                        I’m not being inflammatory. If you have evidence that she’s guilty, please let me know. I’m just tryna figure out what happened. I read the Wikipedia page and the only evidence I could find was her daughter’s accusations.

                        To put it more bluntly: what do you guys know that I don’t know that has you all convinced she’s guilty? I’m a lawyer irl (just starting out, but still a lawyer) and I clerked for a criminal court judge and I’m reluctant to condemn anyone on the testimony of a single witness years after the fact.

                        Again, sorry to derail the thread, but this has been bothering me for a while and I just want to know if I’m defending the wrong person or not.
                        Last edited by Penelope; 09-16-2020, 03:37 PM.


                        The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                          To put it more bluntly: what do you guys know that I don’t know that has you all convinced she’s guilty? I’m a lawyer irl (just starting out, but still a lawyer) and I clerked for a criminal court judge and I’m reluctant to condemn anyone on the testimony of a single witness years after the fact..
                          I'm not a fan of the book and don't know the situation that well so I"m not going to comment on it specifically, but lets not conflate completely different standards of proof here. The criminal court standard of proof is drastically higher than the civil trial standard for a reason, because the ramifications are different (freedom vs money). Believing an accuser and choosing not to support an author accordingly is a very different ramification than locking someone in prison, and thus the standard of proof is lower.

                          Rape and sexual abuse specifically often only have the testimony of the accuser as evidence, and I acknowledge that that often means justice demands the accused go free even when the liklihood is that they are guilty, because locking up the innocent is too great a risk if you aren't sure beyond all reasonable doubt. But if you are applying a "preponderance of the evidence" standard (which I think is fair when discussing social and financial ramifications rather than criminal conviction), then "she said, she said" just comes down to which claimant is, based on available information, more trustworthy.
                          Last edited by glamourweaver; 09-17-2020, 12:30 PM.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                            At the risk of derailing the thread, why is everyone so certain she’s guilty? I don’t want to defend a child molester, but at the same time I don’t want to condemn someone without evidence either.
                            1:] Marion Zimmer Bradley confessed to knowing about her husband's pedophila and child rape during his trial.

                            2:] Her own daughter stated that Marion Zimmer Bradley sexually abused her. Moira Greyland also wrote a book on it ("The Last Closet") that talks about how MZB used her fans to help her husband abuse children.

                            As a note, there's no actual doubt about Marion Zimmer Bradley's guilt anymore than there is about David Eddings' child abuse. Please move on from this topic.

                            It is a very trigger-filled subject and should be dealt with only with the best of care.
                            Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-16-2020, 05:42 PM.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #29
                              The woman (MZB) is dead. Let whatever evil she did be buried with her. As for her books, if there is any good in them, enjoy them if you like. And, as someone said up thread, let the money go to those done wrong.

                              Now, let's remember there is more than enough medieval Arthurian material, much of it with genuinely ancient matterials embedded in them, that discussing anything post-Mallory for any reason other than models for inclusion, is a waste of precious page space.

                              On with the speculations.
                              Last edited by Astromancer; 09-18-2020, 10:48 PM.

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                              • #30
                                No more mentioning MZB. Period.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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