'Once and Future' Speculations

[Kyman201]

I mean... So, Arthur's swords.

A thing to remember about Arthurian 'canon' is that it's a recursive seven-layer bean dip of stories, fanon, fanfiction, and fix-fiction designed to one-up previous fanfiction. (Galahad was entirely created just to one-up Lancelot because a writer REALLY hated Lancelot)

From my very limited understanding, the modern take of Arthur having Caliburn and Excalibur, one coming from the stone and one from the Lake. I believe that Caliburn and Excalibur, phonetically, come from the same sword name just with different pronunciations later. And if you go by which came first, I think the 'Sword from the Lake' thing was a later thing.

THAT BEING SAID... This is Scion. I say embrace the craziness and the contradictions. I'll go with Arthur having multiple swords, and with different people disagreeing which sword was which, which one came from the Stone, which one was tossed from the Lake, which one broke...

[Guest]

I mean... So, Arthur's swords.

A thing to remember about Arthurian 'canon' is that it's a recursive seven-layer bean dip of stories, fanon, fanfiction, and fix-fiction designed to one-up previous fanfiction. (Galahad was entirely created just to one-up Lancelot because a writer REALLY hated Lancelot)

From my very limited understanding, the modern take of Arthur having Caliburn and Excalibur, one coming from the stone and one from the Lake. I believe that Caliburn and Excalibur, phonetically, come from the same sword name just with different pronunciations later. And if you go by which came first, I think the 'Sword from the Lake' thing was a later thing.

THAT BEING SAID... This is Scion. I say embrace the craziness and the contradictions. I'll go with Arthur having multiple swords, and with different people disagreeing which sword was which, which one came from the Stone, which one was tossed from the Lake, which one broke...

That’s really cool that you know all that. Tbh my statement that the sword in the stone shattered and was replaced by Excalibur comes from the Pendragon RPG, which has the ultimate Arthurian chronology. (It also has rules on how a knight should behave when courting a married lady, including some too explicit to talk about in this forum, but that’s a different issue.)

[Astromancer]

That’s really cool that you know all that. Tbh my statement that the sword in the stone shattered and was replaced by Excalibur comes from the Pendragon RPG, which has the ultimate Arthurian chronology. (It also has rules on how a knight should behave when courting a married lady, including some too explicit to talk about in this forum, but that’s a different issue.)

The guide that Karr wrote to the Arthurian legends for that game is still around. A cheap copy can still be found from time to time and would supplement a scion game nicely, I also see The New Arthurian Encyclopedia laying on the ottoman in front of me. It is edited by Norris J. Lacy. It's for both the general reader and students.

[Wiwuno]

Right so Kyman is correct there is no actual "canon" as far as Arthurian mythos goes. In some stories Arthur pulls a sword from a stone to prove his claim to the throne in some its an anvil in other there is no sword pulling at all. In the world of "all myths are true" Morgan Le Fae is simultaneously Arthur's half sister, illicit lover, savior from the brink of death, and arch-nemesis. Percival is the grail knight but so is Galahad, heck sometimes Lancelot doesn't even exist because he came later as a super special cool OC do not steal added in by a french poet to throw in some courtly romance plots. I'm going off of the currently most accepted "canon" as far as my play group understands it. See in my world "The Great King Arthur" is a Mantle born by several Scions throughout history. A Story retold again and again changing with each new iteration. So far none of the Scions bearing the Mantle have managed to complete their apotheosis always falling prey to things like despair over the loss of their love, rage over the betrayal of Mordred or even just simple complacency. My player knows about Excalibur so that is the Sword we are wanting him to seek since that is the vision he has.

[Nervaqus987]

I’ve always felt that the sword in the stone shattered during one of Arthur’s early battles and the Lady of the Lake gave him Excalibur to replace it. What do you guys think?

Yes, in a version of the myths the Sword in the Stone is broken in Arthur's fight with King Pellinore. Sometimes it's because Pellinore is a badass, sometimes Arthur behaves unchivalrously in some way or another and the sword breaks in response. Afterwards, Merlin takes him to the Lady of the Lake who gives him Excalibur in exchange for a favor at a later date.

That favor is called in when she wants the head of Sir Balin and that story is mess of twists and turns that it annoys me to try and sort out.


One of the important things to keep in mind is that Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table are culture heroes. They get involved in all sorts of wacky bullshit with stories retold, changed, distorted, having people added or taken away, and more.

As a result of that, Arthur has so much random magical tools, weapons, and trinkets that he could probably fire the Knights of the Round Table, get a new batch, and fully arm and armor them with just whatever he dug out from the back of his closet.


Side note, regarding the Caliburn/Excalibur discussion, as near as can be figured out the original name of Arthur's sword was Caledfwlch, the name changed slightly over the years and was eventually recorded in Latin as Caliburnus, which the French eventually rendered as "Excalibur."

[Guest]

When I do stuff with King Arthur I use the very extensive chronology found in the 5e Pendragon Companion, which is the updated version of an older guide written years ago by Phyllis Ann Karr. I also make a number of changes based on my own headcanon. The Arthurian Cycle is one of my fave myths and I can’t wait for a Once and Future supplement for Scion.

I actually do like Lancelot 😊. And Galahad, who is defined by his chastity, makes a great foil for Lancelot, who is defined by his romantic but also very physical love for Guinevere.

[No One of Consequence]

I forget where I read it, but it was the statement that King Arthur and the surrounding mythos is something that has always adapted to be what the people of Britain feel they needed at the time. I think the main examples cited were the idea of Arthur returning during the island's hour of greatest need coming to prominence during WW2 and him becoming one of the paragons of chivalry during the high medieval era.

I suspect one of the things that make it so popular and fun is how versatile it is. Mage: The Ascension's Storytellers' Handbook presented IIRC six different options for it in the game, with ones based on three of the Traditions (Order of Hermes, Verbena, and Celestial Chorus), one as a prototype Order of Reason, one turned on its head as an Infernalist thing, and a totally off the wall "Merlin is really a Chinese Dragon Wizard and the knights are all wuxia swordsmen" bit. I once had a Mutants & Mastermind character who was Arthur Pendrake, heir to his father's tech company including its secret computer AI MERLIN and the high tech battle suit Excalibur, juggling being a superhero with fending off an attempted hostile take over by rival Saxon Industries. And I don't think that even begins to scratch the surface of what can be done with it.

As for Excalibur, I think one of my favorite takes on it was from Simon Green's Nightside books, where it is described as a cosmic fulcrum with the power to move the world.

[Astromancer]

I remember a post-apocalyptic rpg campaign with a returned Arthur. The reaction when the acronym for "Gravitational Realignment Anti Interntial Link" was worked out was... predictable. ;-)

[Errol216]

The take on the Arthurian mythos that's always stuck best in my mind is J. Robert King's Mad Merlin which, unsurprisingly, focuses on Merlin but more specifically on what Excalibur actually is.

I... was going to try to dig into it a little, but it's a somewhat obscure series of books (doesn't even have a Wikipedia page), so I don't want to spoil it in case someone ends up interested, and I can't seem to work out how to do spoilertext via the preview.

... actually, I can ROT13 it, I guess.

Onfvpnyyl, va guvf gryyvat, Zreyva vf gur Ebzna Whcvgre naq gur zbax jub genafyngrq gur Ovoyr vagb gur Ihytngr unq gur Sngrovaqvat rssrpg bs genafsvthevat uvz va freivpr bs gur Noenunzvp LUIU: va gur ortvaavat, gurer jnf gur Jbeq, nsgre nyy. Guvf qvq greevoyr guvatf gb Whcvgre'f oenva naq fpenzoyrq uvz hagvy ur jrag znq. Ur raqrq hc tbvat gb gur Fnkbaf naq cvffvat bss gur Nrfve, naq gura sybngrq onpx gb Ratynaq jurer gur fgbel ortvaf.

Jung qbrf guvf unir gb qb jvgu Rkpnyvohe? Jryy, vg'f gur Ihytngr: gur Jbeq gung vf n Fjbeq: n guvat gung pbadhref va gur anzr bs Puevfg. Va havgvat Oevgnva jvgu Rkpnyvohe, Neguhe nyfb pbadhref vg va gur anzr bs gur Grgentenzzngba, vanqiregragyl qevivat bhg bs gur fcvevghny ynaqfpncr gur srl naq Ghngun jub unq qjryg gurer orsber, rira gubhtu Pnzrybg vf ohvyg ragveryl sbe gur checbfr bs ceriragvat gung. Fher, gur fjbeq pna phg nalguvat naq gur fpnooneq znqr sebz gur ynaq'f urnyvat gbhpu sbezf nf n fpno nebhaq vg, ohg vgf pbadhrevat qrfgval raqf hc haqravnoyr naq Znq Zreyva raqf jvgu Zreyva'f eryrinapr, fb jr qba'g dhvgr frr gur raq hagvy gur yngre obbxf (juvpu qrcvpg Ynaprybg naq Zbetna erfcrpgviryl).

Can decipher via https://rot13.com/

[No One of Consequence]

So I finally got around to watching last year's The Kid Who Would Be King, and it's good and a lot of fun. I kind of feel like we eventually need some sort of Scion sourcebook about running the game as a kids' adventure series with protagonists who are around 10 to 16.

[wyrdhamster]

... actually, I can ROT13 it, I guess.

Errol216 on future instances - you can simply write '['SPOILER']''['/SPOILER']' tags in text to get Spoiler box, like this

[Dataweaver]

On the subject of Arthur's sword, my own preference is to make it ambiguous as to whether there was one sword or two: Arthur pulled the sword from the stone, then broke it, then gave the pieces to the Lady of the Lake, then received a sword from her; but was it the same sword reforged by her magic, or a different sword? Since we don't know what happened on her end between receiving the broken sword and giving Arthur a sword, we don't know if there was one sword or two.

[Grimangel53]

I say two things here.

first, I REALLY HOPE this book includes the Welsh Pantheon. With the Arthurian Lore as is, i also want the Welsh Pantheon. I've got one character who is ready to be written up as an arthur, possibly other knights, but i'd like to see the rest of the pantheon too.

second, on the topic of competing myths and legends, id suggest looking at another of Kieron Gillen's works (much like the ones that helped inspire scion 2e's design initially), Once and Future.
It's first arc is all arthurian legend, and it still has ties to it even now.

[No One of Consequence]

first, I REALLY HOPE this book includes the Welsh Pantheon. With the Arthurian Lore as is, i also want the Welsh Pantheon. I've got one character who is ready to be written up as an arthur, possibly other knights, but i'd like to see the rest of the pantheon too.

My understanding - with the caveat that I have nothing to do with Onyx Path, Scion or the book, and that this is just the impression I've gotten from the handful of mentions of it here and there over the past year or so - is that this is supposed to be about Welsh/pre-Anglo-Saxon Britons pantheon with the Arthurian mythos as a manifestation of that. But again, that's just my outsider's impression.

I'm hoping there might be a small bit about the idea of the Tudor dynasty being a brief Welsh resurgence to prominence in Britain.

[nalak42]

I kind of hope it covers stuff like picking up the mantles of old heroes, that or just the various legends of heroes who have "will return in the time of greatest need" as part of their legend. Kind of curious on the latter since I'm only familiar with two or three and I would enjoy seeing more.