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  • #31
    Originally posted by evtrax View Post
    in 1e, the axis pantheons were all tricked. they thought they could break fate. also, they didn't have there usual leaders, except the kami of course, but i think they suffered a collective insanity like the japanese did. in 1e, loki got control of the aseir and caligula impersonated zeus.
    Yeah, that was... Uh, dumb? Like, I don't think you want to tell worshippers of the Aesir "Your gods got conned and that's why they were onboard with the Nazis. Odin got outsmarted by Hilter and his stooges"

    Yeah, no, I'm not gonna touch WW2 because I'm nowhere good enough to talk about that.


    Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

      Yeah, that was... Uh, dumb? Like, I don't think you want to tell worshippers of the Aesir "Your gods got conned and that's why they were onboard with the Nazis. Odin got outsmarted by Hilter and his stooges"

      Yeah, no, I'm not gonna touch WW2 because I'm nowhere good enough to talk about that.
      Yeah, honestly the whole thing, while cool, was a big old what an idiot moment for the gods. The aseir trusted loki for cryin out loud.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by evtrax View Post

        Yeah, honestly the whole thing, while cool, was a big old what an idiot moment for the gods. The aseir trusted loki for cryin out loud.
        I uh, disagree that it was cool. It felt like the writers going for something they thought was cool and instead made the Aesir look like chumps. Which while not tonally inconsistent with other parts of 1e isn't something that should be continued, I think.


        Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

          I uh, disagree that it was cool. It felt like the writers going for something they thought was cool and instead made the Aesir look like chumps. Which while not tonally inconsistent with other parts of 1e isn't something that should be continued, I think.
          Well ok. Thats your opinion. My opinion is that they should have detailed how the other pantheons handled the war. But i respect your opinion and i hope you can respect mine.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by evtrax View Post

            Well ok. Thats your opinion. My opinion is that they should have detailed how the other pantheons handled the war. But i respect your opinion and i hope you can respect mine.
            Okay so, this is entirely me:

            Sometimes if you attribute everything to the Gods, you risk completely mystifying some very human wrongs. Like even 1e understood that, which is why it went 'But the Aesir had no idea that the Holocaust was even planned'. But it still kind of stumbled into things by having the Aesir plan to put Hitler in power for something something 'Changing Fatebindings'

            That kind of handwaves Hitler coming into power for very human reasons, taking advantage of tensions and hatreds at the time. Like, if you put a gun to my head and forced me to talk about the World Wars in Scion... I'd probably go with some 'The two wars were a surprise to many of the Gods, and some of them view the two as being basically one giant war with a break in the middle. The World Wars began for much the same reasons why both began in our world, and many Gods were taken utterly by surprise.'


            Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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            • #36
              There is something to be said for the notion that the gods' concerns aren't the same as man's concerns. I personally wouldn't phrase it in terms of the gods being caught by surprise; more like it was beneath their notice. Yes; two World Wars, both of which involved tremendous human deaths, were beneath their notice. The gods in Scion are not pillars of righteousness. For all we know, it's possible that in the World, Hitler was a Scion, and World War II was his bid for godhood, in much the same way as Caesar's campaign to exterminate the Nemontedavos.

              I do get your point about mythologizing very human evil; but I'll just note that part of the reason why Scion's gods are so flawed is because they're reflections of us. If Hitler was a Scion, that merely illustrates that very human evil can be magnified by the path a Scion treads.


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              • #37
                People tend to use Nazis as stand-ins for '80s Satanists. That is, in pretty much any work of fiction, Nazis are doing evil things for no other reason than "It's evil and we're Nazis." Even self-destructive things like poisoning the city they live in while they are in it or blowing up the Earth that they are standing on. Further, the only character trait they have is "Nazi." They don't have any other motivations or vices. They can't be persuaded, convinced, manipulated, bribed, or threatened. They have no self-interest beyond doing what is most evil, including survival. They can't even pretend to be good because that wouldn't be the most evil thing they can do. If they're not kicking a puppy, it's only because it would slow them down from blowing up a hospital. They'll come back and kick the puppy later.

                And they can never, ever be redeemed. They can't even pretend to be redeemed. They have no capacity for redemption because they cannot do anything beyond seek out evil to do. Because of this, if you introduce Nazi characters that aren't robotically pursuing evil acts for the purpose of evil acts, it creates an uncomfortable and irrational disconnect. This is why they make bad characters in games.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                  Okay so, this is entirely me:

                  Sometimes if you attribute everything to the Gods, you risk completely mystifying some very human wrongs. Like even 1e understood that, which is why it went 'But the Aesir had no idea that the Holocaust was even planned'. But it still kind of stumbled into things by having the Aesir plan to put Hitler in power for something something 'Changing Fatebindings'

                  That kind of handwaves Hitler coming into power for very human reasons, taking advantage of tensions and hatreds at the time. Like, if you put a gun to my head and forced me to talk about the World Wars in Scion... I'd probably go with some 'The two wars were a surprise to many of the Gods, and some of them view the two as being basically one giant war with a break in the middle. The World Wars began for much the same reasons why both began in our world, and many Gods were taken utterly by surprise.'
                  personally i see the asier as being like the german citizens. ie, they were completely fooled by hitler and never knew the holocaust was a thing. hitler was a human, plain and simple. the asier were like the germans, they got caught up in the ferver and never saw the monster he really was until after his death.

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                  • #39
                    I mean... I’m fine with that. Screw ‘em.

                    Yeah there’s something to be said for acknowledging that many of those within Nazi Germant were normal people suffering from their material conditions who probably didn’t understand the full scope of the atrocities that they were party to... but the idea that people couldn’t tell at the time that something was wrong isn’t really true. The Nazis arrested and executed protestors who rejected their rule and their behavior was far beyond the norm. It wasn’t just part of the times.

                    So sure, there’s merit to showing reasonably human characters that were indoctrinated by and became themselves victims of fascism, but that’s not an excuse or justification. At the most charitable, it’s a reason and it makes them somewhat pitiable. However anyone who is a nazi is evil as far as I’m concerned and I don’t have any issue showing them as pure villains, because that’s what they are.

                    If they realize the error of their ways, forswear their former actions and associations, and actively seek to make amends I’d be willing to see them be redeemed. But anyway who is currently a fascist is fundamentally a villain and a threat to society and humanity, so I have no issue rejecting them in the strongest possible terms.

                    Plus, pulps have a lot of bad stuff associated with them, but say what you will, there will always be something satisfying about being able to punch nazis

                    As far as the gods, I can understand thematic arguments for a number of perspectives, but I agree with most people who’ve posted above. The gods operate under their own terms, although connected with the terms of their society and culture. They could be apathetic, surprised, disinterested, or what have you.

                    It’s a nuanced subject and I think plenty of people above make good points but I do ultimately want to agree on this point at least: fascists get nothing unless they forsake fascism and there’s something quite enjoyable about getting to play a hero who punches fascists.

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                    • #40
                      A key part of what Richard the Lyin' Heart was saying, though, is that Nazis aren't just portrayed as evil; they're also portrayed as stupidly evil. It isn't about making them sympathetic; it's about the fact that the ones you really have to worry about are the ones you don't see coming, because they are so good at pretending that they have your best interests at heart — and they're very good at setting up scapegoats. Like I said in my first post to this thread, before you go punching fascists in the face, make sure that they are in fact fascists: it may turn out that they are in fact scapegoats, and that by punching them in the face you're actually facilitating in the real fascists.

                      In Nazi Germany, Germans didn't go after Jews because they had hatred in their hearts; they went after the Jews because they were sold on the notion that there was a Jewish conspiracy that was responsible for their woes. To them, the Jews were the fascists (well, not literally; Fascism was an Italian thing; but I hope you get my point), and deserved everything that they got: it was a matter of justice. To say that they should have known better is to risk falling into the same trap.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by evtrax View Post
                        personally i see the asier as being like the german citizens. ie, they were completely fooled by hitler and never knew the holocaust was a thing. hitler was a human, plain and simple. the asier were like the germans, they got caught up in the ferver and never saw the monster he really was until after his death.
                        If you look at my earlier post, you'll see me explain why this characterisation of the German populace during the Third Reich is deeply wrong and revisionist.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Richard the Lyin' Heart View Post
                          People tend to use Nazis as stand-ins for '80s Satanists. That is, in pretty much any work of fiction, Nazis are doing evil things for no other reason than "It's evil and we're Nazis." Even self-destructive things like poisoning the city they live in while they are in it or blowing up the Earth that they are standing on. Further, the only character trait they have is "Nazi." They don't have any other motivations or vices. They can't be persuaded, convinced, manipulated, bribed, or threatened. They have no self-interest beyond doing what is most evil, including survival. They can't even pretend to be good because that wouldn't be the most evil thing they can do. If they're not kicking a puppy, it's only because it would slow them down from blowing up a hospital. They'll come back and kick the puppy later.

                          And they can never, ever be redeemed. They can't even pretend to be redeemed. They have no capacity for redemption because they cannot do anything beyond seek out evil to do. Because of this, if you introduce Nazi characters that aren't robotically pursuing evil acts for the purpose of evil acts, it creates an uncomfortable and irrational disconnect. This is why they make bad characters in games.
                          Honestly, I couldn't care less whether bleeping Nazis are complex characters, because newsflash, yes, Nazis were pure evil. Evil isn't defined by kicking puppies, but if you try to look for the agonising complexities in the character of people who killed literally 8 million innocents for no other reason than because they deemed them inferior, who literally killed for sport, who played arts and crafts with corpses, then I think you are really coming at this from the wrong side. And yes, they were at times self-destructive about it. The persecution of Jewish people led to a massive brain drain that we all still feel today, because it was the enormous amount of talent that fled to the USA that so firmly put them in the lead globally where science, arts, etc. are concerned. Hitler ordered his armies, including forcibly conscripted child soldiers, to fight to the last man when the Allies were marching on Berlin. He was willing to let every last man of his "chosen people" die because they had disappointed him in losing the war. Many officers went along with this. They were self-destructive and ultimately purposeless in their evil, and that is the whole point.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                            A key part of what Richard the Lyin' Heart was saying, though, is that Nazis aren't just portrayed as evil; they're also portrayed as stupidly evil. It isn't about making them sympathetic; it's about the fact that the ones you really have to worry about are the ones you don't see coming, because they are so good at pretending that they have your best interests at heart — and they're very good at setting up scapegoats. Like I said in my first post to this thread, before you go punching fascists in the face, make sure that they are in fact fascists: it may turn out that they are in fact scapegoats, and that by punching them in the face you're actually facilitating in the real fascists.

                            In Nazi Germany, Germans didn't go after Jews because they had hatred in their hearts; they went after the Jews because they were sold on the notion that there was a Jewish conspiracy that was responsible for their woes. To them, the Jews were the fascists (well, not literally; Fascism was an Italian thing; but I hope you get my point), and deserved everything that they got: it was a matter of justice. To say that they should have known better is to risk falling into the same trap.
                            I really don't want to reply to this, but I replied to the two others, so I feel I have to. Like, Data, I wanna give you the benefit of the doubt, but holy shit, this is stuff I hear from neo-Nazi rallies. This is stuff I'd probably report as incitement under German law if I heard it over here. You are literally making excuses for the perpetrators of the Shoah. Find me a hatred that does not clothe itself in a rhetoric of justice. There's no difference. Of course people back then hated Jews, hated them irrationally, passionately, and sure, in their eyes, justly. The Shoah wasn't about preventing a conspiracy, it wasn't about justice, it was about eradication. Look at my earlier explanation that I linked to. Literal children were writing about how Jewish people were vermin to be exterminated. No, I am not falling into the "same trap" of literal Nazism by insisting that my ancestors should have known better, that they should have resisted, should have refused to collaborate. Saying that there is no room for Nazis in our modern society and neither in the games I play is emphatically not the same as being a Nazi. To call the "scapegoating" of neo-Nazis equivalent to the scapegoating of Jewish people by those same Nazis is ... honestly, I'm at a lack of words. Seriously rethink your reasoning there, Data, please. I want to believe that you're better than Holocaust apologism.

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                            • #44
                              Something people tend to forget is that awful people and philosophies tend to be self-destructive, cause if you encourage people to be awful and to look out only for themselves and their own political power, you tend to get a bunch of people more willing to backstab each other for short term gain then working together. Edit: also people were anti-Semitic before Hitler came along, why do you think Hitler got into power in the first place? Cause he invoked the already present hatred for minorities especially Jews that was super common in the country and well most of the world (and honestly is still pretty damn popular even if it has taken other forms)
                              Last edited by Magicjohnny; 11-13-2020, 04:04 AM.

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                              • #45
                                During session 0 and pre-game planning, I like to mention that any NPC sporting nazi paraphernalia or ideology might as well be wearing a huge sign that says "PUNCH ME"

                                Is it nuanced? No. But I'll save my nuance for literally anything else. Fuck every nazi, forever and ever, amen.

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