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  • Penelope
    started a topic Still tryna wrap my head around this?

    Still tryna wrap my head around this?

    Why are the Tuatha the patrons and rulers of the Irish people when they were defeated by the ancestors of the Celts (the Milesians?) and driven out of Ireland into the Land Beneath?

  • Watcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Mugbearer23 View Post
    Thanks again for your Answer Watcher

    I wonder if this agelesness did also apply to the Formorian. Would be fun to have Lugh´s Grandmother hunt down his incarnations^^

    But i have to wonder did Badb not sing from End of the World after the Second Battle of Mag Tuired?
    Hm. I mean, Tethra seems to still be alive in the Ulster Cycle, so they probably have something going on to keep them young too!

    And The Morrígan does recite some sort of hellishly difficult poem at the end of CMT. I know it has only been translated recently, so I can't actually say anything about it as I haven't read it. I know though that the general perspective on it is that it is written really vaguely that it might be talking about the end of the battle, it might be talking about the events of The Book of Revelations, or it might be something about the sort of... social breakdown we see in other Cycles. The Ulster Cycle contextually comes after the Mythological Cycle, and that is about a society in a screaming, violent social collapse resulting in mass deaths and is in its own way an end of a world / way of life. Similarly to the Finn Cycle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mugbearer23
    replied
    Thanks again for your Answer Watcher


    I wonder if this agelesness did also apply to the Formorian. Would be fun to have Lugh´s Grandmother hunt down his incarnations^^

    But i have to wonder did Badb not sing from End of the World after the Second Battle of Mag Tuired?
    Last edited by Mugbearer23; 11-09-2020, 11:03 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Watcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Mugbearer23 View Post
    Hey Watcher,

    you said that the Thuata de Danann are gods with Jobs and not gods of things how does this description fit the Morrigan especially the one Cu chullain met and Badb.Those two seem rather god of things like. Or is that what you meant with " The Morrígana potentially just being The Furies". By the way why the furies i for one thought that the Moiren or the Nornen seemed more connected to the Morrígana.

    Also how does immortality for the Thuata de danann work? I mean compared to other pantheons (even the Aesir) the Thuata are dropping like flies. But most of the time due to sickness or murder. Are they semi immortal (age doesnt effect them as hard) or more like the Aesir dependend on an outside source of immortality

    Thanks in Advance
    So, this is mostly coming from the work of Michael Clarke in 'Demonology, Allegory and Translation: the Furies and the Morrígan' which you can find in Classical Literature and Learning in Medieval Irish Narrative. What Clarke points out is that in some of the earliest references we have to The Morrígana, their individual names are glossed (annotated / footnoted) with the names of the Classical Furies, and similar exchanges of identities are clear in Irish versions of Classical material. Exactly what this means is a bit up in the air, but in the very least it appears that The Morrígana and The Furies were regarded as a similar group by the medieval Irish, and that potentially a great deal of influence was drawn from the Classical figures for this.

    The reason for this, as you point out, is that The Morrígana do not fit the paradigm we see elsewhere in medieval Irish literature. The Morrígan, Macha, The Badb, Nemain, Annan, etc., are not clearly professionals and thus they don't fit the profession based supernatural power image we see. The only one with a solid profession is The Morrígan who appears to be a queen or royal figure of some sort, but queen of what or where is unknown, and exactly what this means is also unknown. The Badb is functionally a corpse-eating crow who rarely appears as a woman (I can think of 1 example). Nemain is an abstract force without form (Save for 1 example, again, which might be The Badb instead). Macha is a woman without a clear profession. Annan is super vague. So, by and large, we don't know how it fits The Morrígana, asides from them as a group being potentially heavily influenced by another culture.

    The idea that the Morrígana are related to the Nourns or the Morai is based off Victorian work that has no basis in fact unfortunately. There was an assumption that as a group of 3 women (they are way more than 3 members of The Morrígana, like, 5+ at least) they are the same as other groups of 3 women in Indo-European cultures, and assumed they were therefore alloters of Fate. This has literally no evidence or basis in the Irish sagas, and there isn't even a suggestion that people have alloted lifespans. They don't interface with Fate or anything like that, they're just a small collection of rather dangerous war entities.

    And, for the Túatha Dé Danann, their immortality is agelessness. They primarily don't age, and this is either due to some inherent part of their nature, or due to eating the feast of Goibniu. Exactly how this is going now that Goibniu is dead I'd suggest as a key story hook for TDD centered narratives. So, yes, similar to the Aesir. This power is stripped of them if they are Baptized however, which is spelled out several times.

    Happy to help.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mugbearer23
    replied
    Hey Watcher,

    you said that the Thuata de Danann are gods with Jobs and not gods of things how does this description fit the Morrigan especially the one Cu chullain met and Badb.Those two seem rather god of things like. Or is that what you meant with " The Morrígana potentially just being The Furies". By the way why the furies i for one thought that the Moiren or the Nornen seemed more connected to the Morrígana.

    Also how does immortality for the Thuata de danann work? I mean compared to other pantheons (even the Aesir) the Thuata are dropping like flies. But most of the time due to sickness or murder. Are they semi immortal (age doesnt effect them as hard) or more like the Aesir dependend on an outside source of immortality

    Thanks in Advance
    Last edited by Mugbearer23; 11-09-2020, 04:58 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Maitrecorbo
    replied
    I admit when i want to be a bit silly i tend to portray the TDD in constant Pinky and the Brain schemes to try and take over Ireland. 😆

    Leave a comment:


  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Inspired by Watcher's invaluable input, my own table's take is the modern Tuatha (whose memories are vague as to what "really" happened and highly influenced by their own narrative drift) is that they've become comparatively more human friendly for the reason of reincarnation. TDD die all the time after all, and return as Incarnate Scions - which means they've regularly been reborn among the mortal Irish, tying them to that community as well despite their ancient enmity. This may also play into the practice of taking mortal children and leaving changelings - when a TDD dies, Aos Sidhe swap out the new Incarnate to raise beneath the hill.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 11-06-2020, 07:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Penelope
    replied
    Originally posted by Watcher View Post
    This seems like a question I might be needed for as it deals with some niche academic knowledge.

    Okay, so: Academically we do not regard the Túatha Dé as gods. They are literary characters the product of a medieval Christian culture trying to preserve their traditional stories six centuries after Christianization began. They loved these stories, and they loved Classical literature, so they (the Irish monks) wanted to have their own super cool mythological literature. The problem is, by that point a lot of stories had degraded, and as a lot of the stories originally would have been hyper regional, without an 'Irish Mythology' but instead 'the myths of the people who live in Mag Muirethme' which would be different than the people that lived near Síd Brí Leath. Probably some crossover, but it wasn't unified.

    The Irish monks worked with these remnants remembered by the fíli, the professional educated storytellers, and put these tales to paper and tried to weave them together, even if they were not originally woven together. They drew inspiration from other material when they did this, such as The Morrígana potentially just being The Furies (our oldest references to The Morrígana is very very clear that it is just The Furies from Classical Literature), the abundance of chariots, and Cú Chulainn very very overtly being off-brand Achilles and likely was a later addition (other characters such as Cú Roí, Fráech, Conall Cernach, and others likely had entire cycles of literature until Cú Chulainn was reinvented / invented / became so popular).

    Edit: They then built on these reconstructed texts and made their own based on this literary world. For instance, Lebor Gabala Erenn, the Book of Invasions, is a product of the 11th century and isn't a pre-Christian thing. In the earliest tradition, Fomori and Túatha Dé were two words that meant the same thing, and this is why the Fomori geneologies are so intertwined with the Túatha Dé, because the scribes making LGE literally went 'Okay so we need a bad guy. Bres? So his dad probably needs to be bad too...' and worked it out that way. Which is why Elatha is Fomori even though he is also The Dagda, Nuadu, and Ogma's dad. And this also explains why Emer (Cú Chulainn's wife) is a niece of Tethra, one of the Fomori Kings who warred with the Túatha Dé. The time this is referenced is super early, 8th century IIRC, so it existed before the Fomori were these foreign invader enemies and were just Túatha Dé themselves.

    And this is why the situation looks weird. If you approach the material from a scholarly perspective (rather than a Neopagan perspective, which is also entirely legitimate, but draws fundamentally different conclusions that I'm not comfortable talking on as I am not a member of that faith) things don't line up. The Túatha Dé Danann overtly do not like humanity. They are why the Ulster Cycle happened, they manipulate events in Togail Bruidne Da Derga to see Ireland burn and the beautiful peace of Conare Mór (one of their demigod kiddos) by forcing him into an impossible situation and destroying any hope for peace. In Mesca Ulaid the Túatha Dé Danann are hanging around the surface of Ireland, breaking the pact, to sew confusion and disruption through the human kingdoms. In the Finn Cycle, Finn is constantly at war with the Túatha Dé, they do not get on.

    So, the answer is the Túatha Dé Danann are not the patrons or rulers of the Irish.

    However, they also like power, and control. We often see the Túátha Dé taking particular humans as lovers or slaves or sometimes unfortunately both. Some of them support their local humans because the big thing is: the Túatha Dé also hate each other. Aengus killed Lug, Dían Cécht killed The Morrígan's infant son, Goibniu killed Brigid's son, so on and so forth. The Finn Cycle has a lot of very complex wars between the Túatha Dé, as the important thing to note is they are the Túatha. Túath is a word in Old Irish meaning 'tribe' or 'people'. The -a ending there is a pluralization in the nominative case. These are many different tribes who all share a single ancestor figure, and they fucking dislike each other. They go to war with each other all the time. So, sometimes they support humans because they like the humans more than they like that fucker in the next síd over.

    And yeah, sometimes they reincarnate as humans. Though, technically the Túatha Dé are all humans, just really really really well educated humans who are part of a different tribal faction than the Gael (and the various groups of Northmen, etc). Étaín is an example of this. Cú Chulainn, interestingly, is not though! We worked that one out. There is a single version of Compert Con Culainn, the 'Conception of Cú Chulainn' that includes that detail, and it is super weird.

    Essentially what happened, we worked out, is the scribe fucked up. There is a point in the narrative where Cú Chuainn's mom goes 'and who are you' and you get 'Lug mac bla bla bla', and the next line she goes 'and who is the child I carry' and the scribe accidentally copied the exact same line as he did for the previous question, giving the 'Lug mac bla bla bla' line. We actually even know which specific other manuscript he copied from and made this mistake when copying since the stories are otherwise exactly the same, including other spelling errors and stuff. So, tragically, Cú Chulainn is not a reincarnation of Lug. But, he's a reincarnation of himself. And Mongán is a reincarnation of Finn.

    But, yes. I hope that helped. The Túatha Dé Danann do not like humanity and actively work to circumvent them. You can 100% use the Túatha Dé Danann in place of more traditional uses of Titans in Scion games. Just remember they dislike each other as much as they dislike humanity.
    That’s amazing. Thank you. That really helps. I had always assumed from reading Scion and a few Irish myths that the Tuatha were basically benevolent faeries, like the elves in Tolkien.

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Watcher View Post
    The Túatha Dé Danann do not like humanity and actively work to circumvent them. You can 100% use the Túatha Dé Danann in place of more traditional uses of Titans in Scion games. Just remember they dislike each other as much as they dislike humanity.
    Interesting... Will have this in my mind when/if using TDD in my games. 'Evil' Pantheon - who would think...

    Leave a comment:


  • Watcher
    replied
    Pretty much!

    So, the Túatha Dé Danann, as we have them, are literary characters who themselves are just random ass humans because everyone in the Irish sagas is human. The Fomori, the Áos Síde, Fir Bolg, etc, all humans. They became godlike beings through education and learning, but only the highest status of the Túatha Dé hold that position. Essentially: if you were of a profession that didn't require formalized education (ex: farming), you are just a random background figure and don't wield extreme supernatural power as the Túatha Dé do.

    In a historical sense, some of the characters that become the Túatha Dé were probably deities. Midir and Boanann are very likely originally deities. Donn might have been a deity originally, but 100% is one by the 18th century as he is receiving active worship alongside Christianity in rural parts of Ireland including small animal sacrifices. Nuadu and Brigid are maybe characters inspired by deities from tribal groups that migrated from Britain (Brigantia and Nodens), but that one is far more shaky as neither of them share any characteristics with their Nemetondevos alternatives. However, some of them we know are the product of the minds of the monks, such as Ler, who sort of pops into existence in the 13th or 14th century for the Finn Cycle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mugbearer23
    replied
    Wow.

    That was very educational.

    So Thuata were in the beginning just another tribe which later on became transfigured (hope that is the right word) into godlike beings not the other way around.

    Thats good to know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Watcher
    replied
    This seems like a question I might be needed for as it deals with some niche academic knowledge.

    Okay, so: Academically we do not regard the Túatha Dé as gods. They are literary characters the product of a medieval Christian culture trying to preserve their traditional stories six centuries after Christianization began. They loved these stories, and they loved Classical literature, so they (the Irish monks) wanted to have their own super cool mythological literature. The problem is, by that point a lot of stories had degraded, and as a lot of the stories originally would have been hyper regional, without an 'Irish Mythology' but instead 'the myths of the people who live in Mag Muirethme' which would be different than the people that lived near Síd Brí Leath. Probably some crossover, but it wasn't unified.

    The Irish monks worked with these remnants remembered by the fíli, the professional educated storytellers, and put these tales to paper and tried to weave them together, even if they were not originally woven together. They drew inspiration from other material when they did this, such as The Morrígana potentially just being The Furies (our oldest references to The Morrígana is very very clear that it is just The Furies from Classical Literature), the abundance of chariots, and Cú Chulainn very very overtly being off-brand Achilles and likely was a later addition (other characters such as Cú Roí, Fráech, Conall Cernach, and others likely had entire cycles of literature until Cú Chulainn was reinvented / invented / became so popular).

    Edit: They then built on these reconstructed texts and made their own based on this literary world. For instance, Lebor Gabala Erenn, the Book of Invasions, is a product of the 11th century and isn't a pre-Christian thing. In the earliest tradition, Fomori and Túatha Dé were two words that meant the same thing, and this is why the Fomori geneologies are so intertwined with the Túatha Dé, because the scribes making LGE literally went 'Okay so we need a bad guy. Bres? So his dad probably needs to be bad too...' and worked it out that way. Which is why Elatha is Fomori even though he is also The Dagda, Nuadu, and Ogma's dad. And this also explains why Emer (Cú Chulainn's wife) is a niece of Tethra, one of the Fomori Kings who warred with the Túatha Dé. The time this is referenced is super early, 8th century IIRC, so it existed before the Fomori were these foreign invader enemies and were just Túatha Dé themselves.

    And this is why the situation looks weird. If you approach the material from a scholarly perspective (rather than a Neopagan perspective, which is also entirely legitimate, but draws fundamentally different conclusions that I'm not comfortable talking on as I am not a member of that faith) things don't line up. The Túatha Dé Danann overtly do not like humanity. They are why the Ulster Cycle happened, they manipulate events in Togail Bruidne Da Derga to see Ireland burn and the beautiful peace of Conare Mór (one of their demigod kiddos) by forcing him into an impossible situation and destroying any hope for peace. In Mesca Ulaid the Túatha Dé Danann are hanging around the surface of Ireland, breaking the pact, to sew confusion and disruption through the human kingdoms. In the Finn Cycle, Finn is constantly at war with the Túatha Dé, they do not get on.

    So, the answer is the Túatha Dé Danann are not the patrons or rulers of the Irish.

    However, they also like power, and control. We often see the Túátha Dé taking particular humans as lovers or slaves or sometimes unfortunately both. Some of them support their local humans because the big thing is: the Túatha Dé also hate each other. Aengus killed Lug, Dían Cécht killed The Morrígan's infant son, Goibniu killed Brigid's son, so on and so forth. The Finn Cycle has a lot of very complex wars between the Túatha Dé, as the important thing to note is they are the Túatha. Túath is a word in Old Irish meaning 'tribe' or 'people'. The -a ending there is a pluralization in the nominative case. These are many different tribes who all share a single ancestor figure, and they fucking dislike each other. They go to war with each other all the time. So, sometimes they support humans because they like the humans more than they like that fucker in the next síd over.

    And yeah, sometimes they reincarnate as humans. Though, technically the Túatha Dé are all humans, just really really really well educated humans who are part of a different tribal faction than the Gael (and the various groups of Northmen, etc). Étaín is an example of this. Cú Chulainn, interestingly, is not though! We worked that one out. There is a single version of Compert Con Culainn, the 'Conception of Cú Chulainn' that includes that detail, and it is super weird.

    Essentially what happened, we worked out, is the scribe fucked up. There is a point in the narrative where Cú Chuainn's mom goes 'and who are you' and you get 'Lug mac bla bla bla', and the next line she goes 'and who is the child I carry' and the scribe accidentally copied the exact same line as he did for the previous question, giving the 'Lug mac bla bla bla' line. We actually even know which specific other manuscript he copied from and made this mistake when copying since the stories are otherwise exactly the same, including other spelling errors and stuff. So, tragically, Cú Chulainn is not a reincarnation of Lug. But, he's a reincarnation of himself. And Mongán is a reincarnation of Finn.

    But, yes. I hope that helped. The Túatha Dé Danann do not like humanity and actively work to circumvent them. You can 100% use the Túatha Dé Danann in place of more traditional uses of Titans in Scion games. Just remember they dislike each other as much as they dislike humanity.
    Last edited by Watcher; 11-06-2020, 09:20 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mugbearer23
    replied
    Do you mean in real life or the game lore?

    As far as i understand it while the Thuata have little love for the Irish people as a whole they are not above favor specific people or groups. Also it seems that some of the Thuata reincarnate among the descendants of the Milesians such as Cú chulainn who is said to be an incarnation of his father Lugh or Macha which as far as i understand it also has an incarnation somewhere in the Ulster Cycle.

    Leave a comment:


  • unnatural1
    replied
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
    Why are the Tuatha the patrons and rulers of the Irish people when they were defeated by the ancestors of the Celts (the Milesians?) and driven out of Ireland into the Land Beneath?
    Been wondering that myself. If anything, you'd think the Tuatha would HATE the people of modern Ireland?

    Leave a comment:

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