Esotericism in Scion

[Mateus Luz]

Okay. I get it. For instance; In our world we still have flat-Earthers, regardless of the wealth of information to the contrary.

Best comparison!

The Atheists would be considered Flat Earthers in Scion world (as they are in may places nowadays)

[glamourweaver]

Best comparison!

The Atheists would be considered Flat Earthers in Scion world (as they are in may places nowadays)

Generally I just treat the World using the term "atheism" for what would in our reality be more correctly termed misotheism, or at least apatheism. People who think the gods are assholes and don't deserve worship just for being powerful (or at least they're not going to bother) - and may even conclude that the gods' claims about creation are false, and cosmology as observed in Terra Incognita are lies they set up with their powers, and only untampered-with scientific evaluation of nature outside Terra Incognita can reveal the true past and how the world works without "divine" interference (and of course their conclusion is it runs fine on its own - gravity and earth's orbit makes the sun rise and set regardless of what happens to Ra's sun barge or if Amaterasu is hiding in a cave, and the degree that isn't the case is only because of the application of supernatural power to make it not the case - fucking gods).

Similarly, the World uses the term "monotheism" to refer to what we in our reality would more correctly term henotheism or monolatry.


Edit: not to say I think there's no room for tin foil hat wearing Flat-Earther style atheists who deny the existence of the gods despite manifest evidence, but they're a weird fringe thing and not what the term atheism would refer to most often in setting.

[Astromancer]

:P Conspiracy theories arising from a mediocre thriller is also not what I would classify as 'Myth'. Like if you want to use it, then I won't be able to stop you, but let's not claim that it's anything but, well, a conspiracy theory from a mediocre thriller.

I'd say a mediocre thriller took conspiracy theories that had been around and made use of them to make money. But the conspiracies Brown used have been around for a while. They predate the radio, but probably aren't as old as the French Revolution.

[Astromancer]

It can be a thing that people in the World believe even if it is not actually true. For example groups of people in France may think they are direct descendants of the Merovingian bloodline that supposedly carry the blood of Jesus and then try to form conspiracies together. I would use such groups as comic relief villains with delusions of grandeur far beyond their actual competence.

By the way, Merovingian descendants aren't rare. I'm one for example. Most people in Northwest Europe, Spain, Portugal, the British Isles, Australia, New Zealand, or the Americas, have a pretty solid chance of being Merovingian descendants. Trust me, the Merovingians got around and slept around.

[Aristarkos]

By the way, Merovingian descendants aren't rare. I'm one for example. Most people in Northwest Europe, Spain, Portugal, the British Isles, Australia, New Zealand, or the Americas, have a pretty solid chance of being Merovingian descendants. Trust me, the Merovingians got around and slept around.

Yes I know, and they are hardly more divine than any other person even in The World of Scion. Which is why I would make such an antagonist group into comic relief characters because they clearly take themselves way too seriously.

[Dataweaver]

Meanwhile, my own take on Scion is that it should default to being respectful of beliefs; and if you don't think you can do that with a particular set of beliefs, you're probably better off just leaving them out of your game entirely.

But back on topic: Mage: the Ascension is fundamentally built on the premise that every mage has some innate quality (called an Avatar) that enables him or her to change the world. Mage: the Awakening goes with the notion that a mage draws on the laws of a higher reality (the Supernal World) to bypass the common laws of mundane reality. In Scion, the sorcerer draws power from the gods. More generally (and vastly oversimplifying matters), Ascension is about self-empowerment, Awakening is about seeking out mysteries, and Scion is about negotiating with the mighty.

Put a different way, Scion is geared around the notion that the source of power is something that's in some way or another alive and aware, whether it be a God, a Titan, or a Primordial; and as such, there's an implicit social component to magic in Scion: you might worship a higher power, or negotiate with it, or try to steal from or subjugate it; but in general, you're not going to treat it as an impersonal force or an aspect of yourself.

All that said, there aren't sharp boundaries between these categories: all three games can handle the types of magic that the other two specialize in. But each game does have a specialty of its own, something that comes more naturally to it than the rest does: self-empowerment, exploring mysteries, and dealing with others.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[Geoffrey]

That's a good set of distinctions, Dataweaver.

It seems likely to me that sorcerers in Scion are going to end up more like their counterparts in myth and folklore than in any real-world esoteric tradition. They're probably less "I have unlocked the mysteries of the cosmos through years of uninterrupted contemplation of the ineffable" and more "I'm going to hide my soul in this egg, which has never ended badly for anybody, ever."

Given the general multiple-choice metaphysics of the game, there's probably room for all sorts, but for anyone guessing what will or won't be covered if they get an expansion, it seems safe to make a few assumptions based on the practicalities of game-writing:

- sorcerers will be written to connect to the pantheons that exist in the game, rather than requiring a lengthy explanation of how they exist
- they won't contradict what's already been written about them in the rules, namely that they steal power from the Gods
- they'll be described broadly enough that people who read up on magical practices in any of the cultures in the game can find a way to make a sorcerer from that culture work
- no author is going to spend much of their limited wordcount on a unified theory of magic that won't be of interest to 90% of players

-g.

[Astromancer]

Myself, I prefer the Neoplatonic take on sorcerers. Basically, all humans have a spark of divinity within them. Mages are those that learn to access that divinity. Mage: the Ascension pretty much went with this idea, the term Avatar being used to describe the internal spark of divinity. Many mythologies express similar ideas, others are extremely bitter toward sorcery of any kind. I would prefer a choppy, culturally determined, attitude of the gods toward sorcerors and sorcery.

[Geoffrey]

Myself, I prefer the Neoplatonic take on sorcerers. Basically, all humans have a spark of divinity within them.Mages are those that learn to access that divinity.

Oh, it's a valid preference. I just wonder how much it will influence what happens with them in Scion, which otherwise doesn't spend too much time on Neoplatonism.

Many mythologies express similar ideas, others are extremely bitter toward sorcery of any kind. I would prefer a choppy, culturally determined, attitude of the gods toward sorcerors and sorcery.

I agree with the second sentence, but I'm curious about the first for the sake of my own education. Can you point me to other mythologies that include the idea that an inherent spark of divinity empowers magic?

-g.

[Dataweaver]

I'm curious, too; my understanding is that the “spark of divinity” notion is a fairly recent development, and is (almost?) always heretical. The closest I can think of is Buddhism.

[Florin]

I could see parallels with Prometheus stealing fire for mankind and a spark of divinity.

[Dataweaver]

No; that's literally “sorcerers steal their power from the gods”, not “everyone inherently has a divine spark within them”.

[Florin]

It's literally "sorcerers are using stolen goods, and everyone else has the stolen goods in them as well," since Prometheus is a titan. I think that's a big enough distinction to note.

[Dataweaver]

But it isn't “humans have an innate quality that empowers them”; what power they have comes from the gods: the “stolen goods”, as you put it. For the purpose of what Astromancer is taking about, that's a more crucial difference than whether everyone has the stolen goods or if just sorcerers have the stolen goods: either way, they're stolen goods.

[Astromancer]

I agree with the second sentence, but I'm curious about the first for the sake of my own education. Can you point me to other mythologies that include the idea that an inherent spark of divinity empowers magic?

-g.

The Orphic cults certainly promoted the idea by the time of the major Greek dramaists. I know that some Hindi cults (I don't know if they'd be called Hindu) promoted the idea by the Third Century AD. Some Greeks, for what that's worth, said the Druids taught this. It was claimed by some Greeks for the island near the place where the Red Sea meets the Indian Ocean. Again, to be taken with salt. I'd need a good University library to go further.