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Esotericism in Scion

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
    The Orphic cults certainly promoted the idea by the time of the major Greek dramaists. I know that some Hindi cults (I don't know if they'd be called Hindu) promoted the idea by the Third Century AD. Some Greeks, for what that's worth, said the Druids taught this. It was claimed by some Greeks for the island near the place where the Red Sea meets the Indian Ocean. Again, to be taken with salt. I'd need a good University library to go further.
    Well, no need to catch the plague to satisfy my idle curiosity. Thanks for the quick answer.

    -g.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post

      It can be a thing that people in the World believe even if it is not actually true. For example groups of people in France may think they are direct descendants of the Merovingian bloodline that supposedly carry the blood of Jesus and then try to form conspiracies together. I would use such groups as comic relief villains with delusions of grandeur far beyond their actual competence.
      Kyman201, Aristarkos thank you guys. Very good point.


      “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her.

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      • #48
        Try this idea. Two gods from different Native American pantheons with incompatible objectives. Say one goddess thinks that the "New Age" movement can be high-jacked to weave Native American culture and values into the broader American culture and society. In her culture initiation made you a member of the group and her scram is "If you can't beat them get them to join you!"

        Meanwhile, another goddess wants to kill file the "New Age" movement. She sees the appropriation of Native American customs, tropes, practices, and more as theft. In her culture birth made you part of the group and the group must remain pure.

        The idea would be for the PCs to defuse a destructive feud.

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        • #49
          I mean, appropriation is theft, like by definition it is theft of a culture’s practices by a culture that doesn’t truly respect those practices or their origin, even Native cultures with initiations dislikes the appropriation of their practices because those initiations can’t be done by a random white dude claiming they’re a shaman, they require the community and a trained traditional shaman.

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          • #50
            Also heck, even plenty of modern new agers have been trying to move away from appropriating anyways, as they’ve recognized the problems with it

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Magicjohnny View Post
              I mean, appropriation is theft, like by definition it is theft of a culture’s practices by a culture that doesn’t truly respect those practices or their origin, even Native cultures with initiations dislikes the appropriation of their practices because those initiations can’t be done by a random white dude claiming they’re a shaman, they require the community and a trained traditional shaman.
              Which is the view of the second goddess. The first goddess ( need to research and find a good pair) seeks to make certain Native American ideas, ideals, and values, a part of the wider culture. She sees what she wants to do as cultural exchange. Her opponent sees it as cultural appropriation. This deeply offends the first goddess. Her reasoning is that every other group of people in history has been engaged in cultural exchange since history has been recorded, why are the groups of people she cares about excluded? To her denying the right of cultural exchange looks like saying Americans of all kinds aren't real people.

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              • #52
                Appropriation isn’t cultural exchange tho, they’re different. Cultural exchange is about cultures that are on friendly terms engaging and understanding each other, appropriation is when a much more powerful culture comes along, sees your stuff and says “oh that looks cool, I’m gonna take it like it’s a costume, nuance and understanding and actually asking the culture for their input? What’s that?” Also personally, the idea of having one of the gods of an oppressed people be a-ok with one of the avenues of their oppression(and yes cultural appropriation is a form of oppression, just look up the suicide rate among Native teens and the studies suggesting it’s tied to stuff like the stereotype mascots) is not a good idea

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Astromancer View Post

                  Which is the view of the second goddess. The first goddess ( need to research and find a good pair) seeks to make certain Native American ideas, ideals, and values, a part of the wider culture. She sees what she wants to do as cultural exchange. Her opponent sees it as cultural appropriation. This deeply offends the first goddess. Her reasoning is that every other group of people in history has been engaged in cultural exchange since history has been recorded, why are the groups of people she cares about excluded? To her denying the right of cultural exchange looks like saying Americans of all kinds aren't real people.

                  See the issue here is that many religions aren't really interested in spreading their beliefs to a wider audience. Some faiths have a strong emphasis on proselytizing, but many have a strong emphasis on the idea that these are the beliefs of our culture, and they don't really care if other people are following them, particularly given that in many cases there is a belief that they have been chosen for something special because of their faith.

                  Consider for instance, among the Anishinaabe (a tribal grouping that includes the tribes that revere the Manitou in the Core Pantheons) there is the prophecy of the Seven Fires. This is essentially a collection of teachings that outline both future events that the Anishinaabe tribes will be confronted with, as well as the spiritual lessons to learn from those predictions.

                  Notably however, while they say a lot of things that are useful for day to day life. They are rather clear that they are for and about the Anishinaabe people, not humanity at large. Indeed one of the prophecies is specifically about European people (light skinned people) and how the Anishinaabe should approach and interact with them (in a word: cautiously.)

                  Everyone can learn from other cultures, it's true, but that doesn't mean we have any right to claim elements from other cultures, particularly if they have not been designated as being for us. If another culture wants to share things with others, that's usually fine, but acting like cultural exchange means that everyone's permitted to do whatever they want with another person's traditions is ridiculous.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Magicjohnny View Post
                    Appropriation isn’t cultural exchange tho, they’re different. Cultural exchange is about cultures that are on friendly terms engaging and understanding each other, appropriation is when a much more powerful culture comes along, sees your stuff and says “oh that looks cool, I’m gonna take it like it’s a costume, nuance and understanding and actually asking the culture for their input? What’s that?” Also personally, the idea of having one of the gods of an oppressed people be a-ok with one of the avenues of their oppression(and yes cultural appropriation is a form of oppression, just look up the suicide rate among Native teens and the studies suggesting it’s tied to stuff like the stereotype mascots) is not a good idea
                    I am going to burst your bubble here. Many cultures that are hostile to each other have engaged in cultural exchange. Take England and France, how many wars have they had? But cultural exchange between the two is always highest during times of conflict. Look at the Arab lands and Europe. On Thursday when you sit down to dinner note that the whole business of sitting in chairs is an Arab custom. As is desert for that matter.

                    The Arabs were neither friendly with the Hindus nor the Europeans, but they transmitted the numbers we call "Arabic" from India to Europe. Although that wasn't intended. If you play music, or even listen to it, Arabic forms radically shaped Western music since at least the year 1000.

                    Although the Arabs don't like to admit it, they've freely borrowed from our culture as it pleased them. They aren't alone.

                    In the riots in Thailand a salute from the film "The Hunger Games" has become a way to singnal radical intent and moral commitment.

                    Any analysis of clothing on the American frontier would show both sides freely adopting each other's clothes. We take more notice of it with Native Americans but it was commonplace among other groups too. In the 1820s many White people in the Appalachians wondered if young white men would abandon all clothing except Native American clothes.

                    I do not deny or belittle the misery that haunts and brutalizes the vast majority of Native American comunities. I think it has far more to do with grinding poverty, brutally poor educational opportunities, the absence of medical treatments, and many other aspects of poverty. Ask yourself, if the average Native American could get decent fair acess to education, health care, remunerative jobs, and the rest of FDRs second bill of rights, would they be bothered to care about mascots?

                    Some might, most would get on with their lives. Cultural Appropriation is just a way of saying, "let's have a little justice, but not to much." After all, even if I could erase every trace of Native American mascots and all of the hideous "Cigar Store Indian" garbage by close of business today, would that make the house of one impoverished Native American elder warmer, or provide clean water?

                    I want to do real things for real people.

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                    • #55
                      Hey, question. What does a plot idea about a bad-faith strawmanning about cultural appropriation being something that only old-fashioned stuck-up traditionalists think is real (news flash: Cultural Appropriation is real, and it's bad and we shouldn't do it) have to do with Esotericism? Like leaving aside the argument itself, I don't think it's particularly relevant to the topic at hand.

                      Edit: But an honest opinion about the plotline. It's a bad idea that I will NEVER run.

                      Because, frankly, I'm a white person. I have benefited from American Imperialism and racist systems and laws in this country. I, personally, did not do anything to put the native people of this country in the position they're in now, and unfortunately beyond donations here and there there's not much I can do to fix a problem far bigger than me.

                      But you know what I can do as the BARE MINIMUM? I can show them some basic goddamn respect. I can engage in cultural exchange on THEIR terms. I can buy art from native artists, I can buy books on the stories released by them.

                      And if the general consensus from specific tribes is "Hey we would rather you not talk about or circulate our sacred stories and myths" I can go "Roger that, have a nice day"

                      Will this cause any meaningful change? Fuck no it won't. I'm not under any delusion that it will fix the countless problems they face.

                      But at the very least: AT THE VERY LEAST I can listen to what they're saying and respect what they're saying. And I can, say, NOT deliberately phrase a 'Conflict' between two Goddesses and say "This one wants to share the culture" while describing her in the flattering terms while going "This one doesn't want to" and phrasing her side in the more weighted terms to cast her as being in the wrong.

                      Because I'm not of their culture. It is not up to ME whether these ideas get shared or circulated. If native tribes feel like sharing some of their stories, I will graciously accept them and listen to them and take them to heart. If the tribe representatives say "We would rather you not take these from us", then that's the end of the conversation. And it would make me feel gross if I were to, in my position as a white person from outside one of those cultures, to presume to step in and go "There are two major figures. One is reasonable and wants to share this with the outsiders, the other does not want to share the stories and is a stubborn traditionalist"

                      It is not my place to make those kinds of insinuations.
                      Last edited by Kyman201; 11-24-2020, 07:14 AM.


                      Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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                      • #56
                        The change of topic was so sudden and the new topic was so bad that I actually experienced whiplash.

                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post

                        I want to do real things for real people.
                        Might I suggest that you do not make assumptions about what Native Americans would think considering that they are real and many of them have, repeatedly and loudly, expressed their displeasure towards cultural appropriation? Jesus Christ.

                        e: like you literally came up with this "culture sharing" goddess yourself, let's not kid ourselves
                        Last edited by PXGentleman; 11-24-2020, 09:11 AM.

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                        • #57
                          This is something that has come up repeatedly in multiple threads but there's a massive amount of thread drift on the subject repeatedly. Basically, someone starts a discussion on a Scion subject then it drifts to incorporating cultural material from other culture, makes a sweeping generalization about said material, starts talking about past cultural tragedies, another acts dismissive, and then talk past one another and none of it has anything to do with the subject.

                          It's always the same people.

                          So anyone who actually starts lecturing on the subject outside of Scion will be banned for a week if they ever do it again. If they do it after that, they will be permanently banned from the forum. This is not a place to lecture about racism or what does not count as racism.

                          This is the first and final warning on the subject.

                          (@Astromancer, you also deliberately have been starting this too, don't think I haven't noticed)



                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            This is something that has come up repeatedly in multiple threads but there's a massive amount of thread drift on the subject repeatedly. Basically, someone starts a discussion on a Scion subject then it drifts to incorporating cultural material from other culture, makes a sweeping generalization about said material, starts talking about past cultural tragedies, another acts dismissive, and then talk past one another and none of it has anything to do with the subject.

                            It's always the same people.

                            So anyone who actually starts lecturing on the subject outside of Scion will be banned for a week if they ever do it again. If they do it after that, they will be permanently banned from the forum. This is not a place to lecture about racism or what does not count as racism.

                            This is the first and final warning on the subject.

                            (@Astromancer, you also deliberately have been starting this too, don't think I haven't noticed)
                            Can I ask for some clarification on this subject? Surely you don't mean that it's bannable to say "I think you're doing some cultural appropriation here", right?

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by PXGentleman View Post

                              Can I ask for some clarification on this subject? Surely you don't mean that it's bannable to say "I think you're doing some cultural appropriation here", right?
                              Please report this and we'll shut it down. Its against forum rules. Don't fight the battle of the moderators for them.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                Please report this and we'll shut it down. Its against forum rules. Don't fight the battle of the moderators for them.
                                CTP, all he did was ask you for clarification of your ruling. No one is fighting any battles. We're just trying to understand what you're telling us.

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