Esotericism in Scion

[CTPhipps]

CTP, all he did was ask you for clarification of your ruling. No one is fighting any battles. We're just trying to understand what you're telling us.

I thought I was clarifying.

[PXGentleman]

So if I've got it right, we need to REPORT cultural appropriation, not intervene ourselves.
It's going to be mighty hard to participate in a discussion where cultural appropriation is happening without saying "hey, look, you're doing cultural appropriation there" but I guess i'll give it a shot...

[Dataweaver]

I think part of the issue is the piling on; but I could be wrong. I'm also pretty sure that a bigger part of the issue is furthering the thread derailment: as I see it, this thread is about the idea of bringing magical traditions that don't necessarily align with specific Pantheons or drive their powers from the gods into Scion. Posts that do nothing other than call out cultural appropriation (or anything else that's not the above) derails the thread. Including this post, so far.

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In an attempt to bring this back on topic, I'd like to try building a list of magical traditions that might not be Pantheon-specific. This is likely to be quite a challenge, as most magical traditions derive from specific cultures and tend to be related to the Pantheons that derive from those same cultures. Nonetheless, here's a tentative first draft:

Hermetic magic: has roots in the Greco-Roman cultures, so it might be related to the Theoi.

Witchcraft: I really don't know much about where this one comes from; I think the modern form of it is a synthesis of several cultures' beliefs?

Kaballah(sp?): This one's actually closely linked to one very specific culture; but it's one that doesn't officially have a Pantheon associated with it. Namely, the Jewish people.

Those are the ones that most readily come to mind. Thoughts?

[wyrdhamster]

Hermetic magic: has roots in the Greco-Roman cultures, so it might be related to the Theoi.

Witchcraft: I really don't know much about where this one comes from; I think the modern form of it is a synthesis of several cultures' beliefs?

Kaballah(sp?): This one's actually closely linked to one very specific culture; but it's one that doesn't officially have a Pantheon associated with it. Namely, the Jewish people.

Those are the ones that most readily come to mind. Thoughts?

I would put Hermetic Magic as Theoi legacy, maybe, probably, as Mystery Cult of Hermes. However, not mainstream cult of him.

Kaballah is based on Judeo-Christian interpretation of universe. It would need Judeo-Christian Pantheon to work as Scions. HOWEVER, as Sorcery Tradition, based on the Purviews and Marvels, without Pantheon - should work okay for game purpose.

Witchcraft I do not know as modern interpreation. However Wicca, reflecting cults of many Witches-Goddesses, points to female patrons. So maybe crossPantheon collaboration of Goddesses of Magic and Night?

[Dataweaver]

Next question: can such things have their own Motifs? If so, where does the Motif get its power?

[Maitrecorbo]

The Marvel would be where the power comes from with the Motif offering the ... necessary structure for the power to express itself i guess.
Much in the way of the Feat of Scale needing a Legendary Title to activate.

But yeah, in most scion games the easiest way to feature esoteric pratices would be through motifs.

[Dataweaver]

As I understand it, a Marvel is the result of channeling the mythological construct known in the game as a Pantheon through a Motif. That is, the Marvel is the result, not the source.

Thus, my question about what would power a Motif that isn't tied to one of three Pantheons; and whether or not you can't have alternate Motifs for a Pantheon..

[Astromancer]

Multiple groups might struggle to control an Esoteric movement or share the movement while they pursue different goals.

[Maitrecorbo]

As I understand it, a Marvel is the result of channeling the mythological construct known in the game as a Pantheon through a Motif. That is, the Marvel is the result, not the source.

Thus, my question about what would power a Motif that isn't tied to one of three Pantheons; and whether or not you can't have alternate Motifs for a Pantheon..

Well not only as a pantheon.
Sources for motifs are purviews access through relics and the specialisation of the Artistry, Beast and Passion Purviews.
In this optic, and if ive understood your question correctly, the source of the motif are the purviews which are expression of reality/existence.
So .... everything is the source i guess.
The fuel that powers this would be the divinity pf the scion through the Legend expenditure/imbuing.

[PXGentleman]

Witchcraft is one of those words that can mean anything or nothing, and basically gets plastered on any situation where a woman is using magic.
Remember that terrible Mulan movie where the woman who could change into a falcon was a witch and suffered from ostracization despite witches not being a thing in ancient China? :P

[Kyman201]

I wager that in Saints and Monsters, the various Sorcerous traditions will have their own Motifs.

[PXGentleman]

I wager that in Saints and Monsters, the various Sorcerous traditions will have their own Motifs.

Yeah that's the likely story.

[Kyman201]

Next question: can such things have their own Motifs? If so, where does the Motif get its power?

This probably isn't a super helpful answer but my tentative answer would be something like "A tradition gets a motif when it works, and it works when it works"

Circular, maybe a bit, but usually the Motif's origin of power is evident in the Motif itself. So hypothetically, students using the Ars Goetia would probably get a motif like "Summon the right demon for the right job"

Where's the power coming from? Presumably from the demons. If another tradition uses mathematical formulae for its rituals, its motif would reflect that.

When does a little habit become a full tradition? That's probably up to the table.

[Geoffrey]

In an attempt to bring this back on topic, I'd like to try building a list of magical traditions that might not be Pantheon-specific. This is likely to be quite a challenge, as most magical traditions derive from specific cultures and tend to be related to the Pantheons that derive from those same cultures. Nonetheless, here's a tentative first draft:

Hermetic magic: has roots in the Greco-Roman cultures, so it might be related to the Theoi.

This depends on what you mean by "Hermetic," which can be as hard to pin down as "Gnostic." The main problem is that the definition started with the small body of literature ascribed to Hermes Trismegistus or one of his pupils (Tat, Asclepius), then expanded to other works in which Hermes Trismegistus features or is referenced, then to anything that looks similar to one of the first two types. Hermetism, the philosophy and set of alchemical and astrological texts that develop from the early material, is much more Egyptian than Greek- or Roman-influenced. Most of the sources come from around Alexandria, though, which was cosmopolitan enough that it brings in influences from all over. Hermeticism, which flourishes in the Renaissance and later, leans much more heavily on Neoplatonism for its theories.

Witchcraft: I really don't know much about where this one comes from; I think the modern form of it is a synthesis of several cultures' beliefs?

Another term with a broad range of possible meanings depending on what part of the world you're talking about. If I remember right, Scion avoids the word "witch" deliberately.

-g.

[Kyman201]

Another term with a broad range of possible meanings depending on what part of the world you're talking about. If I remember right, Scion avoids the word "witch" deliberately.

-g.

Yeah there's a sidebar in one of the books where it mentions Sorcery, and the Sidebar basically says something like "Look you're probably thinking the word 'Witch' for this but that's kind of a loaded phrase that we're going to deliberately take efforts to avoid using in this context, so we use Sorcerer as a catch-all term instead"