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  • #76
    Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
    Yeah there's a sidebar in one of the books where it mentions Sorcery, and the Sidebar basically says something like "Look you're probably thinking the word 'Witch' for this but that's kind of a loaded phrase that we're going to deliberately take efforts to avoid using in this context, so we use Sorcerer as a catch-all term instead"
    I don't know if it's still used among anthropologists, but for a while there was a technical distinction between a witch and a sorcerer based on Evans-Pritchard's Witchcraft, Oracles and Magic Among the Azande. Witches are people who are born with supernatural talents that they inherit from one or the other parent, and who may be completely unaware that they're witches. Sorcerers are people who study under another sorcerer to learn similar abilities. He was writing about specific cases in one part of Africa, however, so even then the terms can't be applied universally.

    -g.

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    • #77
      Fascinating! Thanks, Geoffrey.

      It's also pretty hilarious because I was informed by like,,, D&D Sorcery, which was defined as kind of magic from some inherited source.


      Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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      • #78
        Well, I'm hoping that when they tackle this in more depth, they address better such as this. If I want to play something that would commonly be considered a witch, I'd like to know what the appropriate setup would be in the game. And yes, I realize that a generic “witch” is unlikely to make it in. But I wouldn't want that, anyway. I'd rather see some culturally appropriate examples of what inspired the notion of the witch. For instance.


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        • #79
          Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

          This probably isn't a super helpful answer but my tentative answer would be something like "A tradition gets a motif when it works, and it works when it works"

          Circular, maybe a bit, but usually the Motif's origin of power is evident in the Motif itself. So hypothetically, students using the Ars Goetia would probably get a motif like "Summon the right demon for the right job"

          Where's the power coming from? Presumably from the demons. If another tradition uses mathematical formulae for its rituals, its motif would reflect that.

          When does a little habit become a full tradition? That's probably up to the table.
          Given this world is mythopoetic, and poems and myths work when they work, and when it works it works, I have to conclude you're right.

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          • #80
            Couple of Moscow Mules in, so my normal filters of discretion may be missing or I may make no damn sense, but I thought this would be a thread to address a interest I wanted to bring into my Scion game I'm constructing. Kinda disappointed in seeing some posts awfully caught up in portraying some kind of moral authority or final say on the historical origins of what gets to be called what, who gets to use it, and how to present it "correctly" regarding the subject of basically...magic?

            So for my part, I ain't wading into them waters for a number of reasons. Meaning, i don't give a damn where a word came from, who thought of it first, etc. I'm replying strictly in the interest of ways to present the concept of supernatural forces within my Scion game, something I believe I have the consent from the authors to do and explore for my game, yes? While I'm all for being respectful, open minded and tolerant of different opinions, I'm not going to prostate myself before the altar of social justices de jure. And while censorship is all the rage these days, never been a fan of hearing only one side of a story, or needing someone to rescue me from someone else's opinions. So if I offend, that wasn't my intent, but maybe not being so eager to be offended might help too? Anyway.

            What I'm currently tasked with is bringing a number of elements into my Scion game that i don't have printed material for...or perhaps there is and either I missed it or I haven't bought that particular title yet? IIRC there is a supplement coming out...sometime...soon-ish (?) dealing with the power of the supernatural in the hands of something that isn't a Scion, so I'll definitely be on the lookout for that, and given what the team has put together so far I'm willing to bet it'll be pretty damn good. But...still gots a problem to tackle for my game now. Seems like this topic is trying to wrestle that critter ...more or less.

            Reading Origin, Hero, Mysteries, and Titanomachy in parallel these past couple of weeks, becoming increasingly enamored of the franchise as I am beginning to "get it". At first i was going to do just Scions since, well, that's the theme of the title right? But as the...hrmm...elegance? of the system and it's approach are sinking into my thickish skull, I'm motivated to basically turn all my urban fantasy games over to Scion/Storypath. I.E. WoD/CoD titles, mostly Mage and Forsaken TBH. I even want to eventually see if I can do Exalted with it, as dear God EX3's combat system is a hysterical mess. The more I study this system the more it's like that bookish librarian taking off her glasses and letting down her hair revealing herself as a gorgeous goddess. Pardon...I'm wandering, back on topic.

            I'm thinking that the way I'm going to do this tense co-habitation of Scion/Mage/Forsaken is to take the wise words offered me in another thread and just stick with Scion rules, and do Magi and Forsaken as Supernatural Paths, in fact...I'm a definite fan of that concept. I'm also going to commit the heresy of bringing in some AD&D/PF concept of "divine magic" and "arcane magic", with basically what the Scions and some myth critters do as powered by "divine magick", and the others powered by "arcane magic".

            So in other words, I'm representing a WoD/CoD Mage concept in Scion as they wiggle fingers, speak weird words of powers, draw squiggly-dos, etc, shaping and willing the arcane energies they've studied to do something. But I'm just drop-kicking the whole backstory of Mage in either incarnation as far as Watchtowers, Exarchs, etc off the field and instead create a few Mystery Schools/Orders for them to be part of, I might borrow some stuff from MTAW but I'm a student of several mystery schools so I might weave some of that in with it too.

            But basically I'm going to Divine/Arcane as sources of power that are pretty much equal. Arcane magic is like the unifying field energy, when gods use magic their mantles and purviews make the magic a personal extension of themselves and thereby it becomes divine, and being innately magical they can access this with less effort than mortals (hence why they have to jump through extra hoops to make magic work for them). While when that power is directed through the various methods of different kinds of "schools of magic" its more like a application of, as wyrdhamster initially posted, "esoteric science" and I'd even add on to that, philosophy. Neither is innately "superior", but their differences are definite and Arcane can be picked up by anyone with access to knowledge and the discipline to pursue it.

            I'm thinking i can tap the existing Purviews and Knacks form some direct 1:1 parallels but adding some custom ones will more than likely happen (TBH I haven't read all the Purviews/Knacks yet, focusing on other parts of the system). I'm not too concerned with porting over the Spheres per say...but while I'm reluctant to create a "Forces" Purview, I also don't think I want a "Mage" to have to have 4-5 different Purviews just to represent the concept of Forces. I.E. some things don't seem to carry over as fully/cleanly as I'd like. Though maybe I'm being a idiot and not seeing the easy answers via a mechanic in the system? Any MTAW/MTAC STs want to chime in there? And hey, don't worry none of my feelings being bruised if that's a dumb idea, just tell me why, I'm a big boy, I can take well intended blunt criticism and say a sincere thanks for taking the time to do it .

            A problem I'm juggling though is the notion of demons, devils and the Abrahamic mythos riding shotgun with the other myths of the world. Mind you, I totally took the author's suggestion of all myths are true to heart and just went with it, I have zero problem with the notion of reality and truth being a matter of perspective. I like the idea that Solomon summoned and bottled up 72 demons with Kabbalistic practices, right alongside of Zoroastrianism, Djinn equals/not the same as Demons, Atlantis real with magi-tech (Awww hells yeah!! Though the actual gods write up? kinda meh TBH), etc...though the one mythos I'm not going to have anything to with is Cthulhu, not knocking it but ...yeah... I just don't want to, kinda like dipping a perfectly good pizza into ranch dressing, if it floats your boat fine, but it ain't touching my slice no way no how not ever. Whiskey is enjoyed neat, coffee black, and pizza untainted by ranch, yeah, I'm a simple semi-hairless monkey.

            Meh...wandered a bit there, apologies fellow STs, working on Mule #4. Back to the juggling, the notion of demons, Nephilim, Angels, etc, if all Myths are real, well then I think I gots a whole pantry of cool material to toss in front of my non-Abrahamic Scions to deal with, especially as I can see a mortal Mage summoning/wielding such entities to push back against "pagan influence", even if they aren't religious, just to hold on to their turf or heck, just pursue power for it's own sake. Not like mortals don't always want to hit that pipe just one more time right? My question on that note is though, is treating demons as Titanspawn, and demon lords as Titans a decent approach? I'm thinking I can then likewise consider the various Archangles as a "god" of sorts that Scions can descend from, i.e. a Chosen Scion of Michael or Uriel. I kind of like the idea of pitching Abrahamic Scions against "Pagan" Scions as each group seeks to further it's standing within the mortal world.

            So what I'm wanting to do is create a method for rendering and presenting "Mages" in my Scion setting. I figure I can use Evidence to "Magi" to govern how ballsy and blatant they can be, though I'm not concerned with representing Paradox in any way, figure I can flick a Mage's ear with a Complication, though TBH I'm less cocky about how to govern resolving it (again, suggestions welcome). What dial setting needs to be in place to represent some particularly capable Magi accessing the 5 dot? And am I out of line considering Mage Sanctums a kind of Terra Incognita? And finally, lacking experience with Scion, do Hero's at Legend 4 readily stack up against a Mage wielding the 5th dot of a Sphere?

            Sorry if I meandered on my post a bit, just looking for feedback from fellow enthusiasts.


            Reality is a matter of perception, challenging one's own or that of others is not a crime, it is a service.

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            • #81
              Seeker1728 esotericism/arcana ramblings are cool! General advise – many of the things you mentioned where already tackle on the Scion forum, just in pieces, in various topics. I will link them in this answer. 😉 As old Mage: the Awakening ( MtAw ) Storyteller and new Scion ( Sc ) Storyguide, I will answer those questions from this perspective. Now to the particular parts of ramble then…

              Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
              But basically I'm going to Divine/Arcane as sources of power that are pretty much equal. Arcane magic is like the unifying field energy, when gods use magic their mantles and purviews make the magic a personal extension of themselves and thereby it becomes divine, and being innately magical they can access this with less effort than mortals (hence why they have to jump through extra hoops to make magic work for them). While when that power is directed through the various methods of different kinds of "schools of magic" its more like a application of, as wyrdhamster initially posted, "esoteric science" and I'd even add on to that, philosophy. Neither is innately "superior", but their differences are definite and Arcane can be picked up by anyone with access to knowledge and the discipline to pursue it.
              It's okay, I think, in now Scion gameline canon. Just stick to existing Purviews and Knacks in 1:1, simply cause they are built already and mechanically balanced against one another – no need to reinvent wheel here. 😊 Gods can talk all the way about ‘stealing power of gods’, but arcane spellcasters can simply say ‘those are just the parts of reality WE uncovered, without your help, no thank you’.

              Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
              A problem I'm juggling though is the notion of demons, devils and the Abrahamic mythos riding shotgun with the other myths of the world. (…)
              Back to the juggling, the notion of demons, Nephilim, Angels, etc, if all Myths are real, well then I think I gots a whole pantry of cool material to toss in front of my non-Abrahamic Scions to deal with, especially as I can see a mortal Mage summoning/wielding such entities to push back against "pagan influence", even if they aren't religious, just to hold on to their turf or heck, just pursue power for it's own sake. Not like mortals don't always want to hit that pipe just one more time right? My question on that note is though, is treating demons as Titanspawn, and demon lords as Titans a decent approach? I'm thinking I can then likewise consider the various Archangles as a "god" of sorts that Scions can descend from, i.e. a Chosen Scion of Michael or Uriel. I kind of like the idea of pitching Abrahamic Scions against "Pagan" Scions as each group seeks to further it's standing within the mortal world.
              We already have talk about fan Abrahamic Pantheon as Archangels Patrons for it – it’s here, Bodiless Powers - Archangels. I may help you finish it, even, if you are interested. Just write in that topic.

              Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
              So what I'm wanting to do is create a method for rendering and presenting "Mages" in my Scion setting. I figure I can use Evidence to "Magi" to govern how ballsy and blatant they can be, though I'm not concerned with representing Paradox in any way, figure I can flick a Mage's ear with a Complication,
              Using Complications on Purviews and Marvels rolls as Paradox alternative is simply BRILLIANT! Totally steal that for my games! You could expand here how you could see a small sample of system like that?

              Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
              What dial setting needs to be in place to represent some particularly capable Magi accessing the 5 dot?
              By Scion Companion – Mysteries of the World ? Any Myth Levels Dial, really. Dials are about GENERAL level of things in Scion – every time you can have exceptions, in any setting. The Magi just need to have specific ( or VERY specific ) Path for it. Remember, more individual and elaborated character Path in Scion – the more ‘concrete’ character is.

              Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
              And am I out of line considering Mage Sanctums a kind of Terra Incognita?
              Terra Incognita is ‘any supernatural place that is outside of real Earths reality’. Secret dimensions, mythological lands, etc. Most MtAw Sanctums are just real world places – sometimes they have connections to other planes, like important Shadow parallel realm.

              Think more on Terra Incognita as like Chantries of Archmasters in MtAw ( see Imperial Mysteries or Tome of Mysteries from MtAw line for more ideas – IM is better for this, mark me ). In Mage: The Ascensions I do not know books to point for, as only played few session of MtAs, decades ago.

              Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
              And finally, lacking experience with Scion, do Hero's at Legend 4 readily stack up against a Mage wielding the 5th dot of a Sphere?
              I cannot help with that as running MtAw, so based on Arcana. Not tested it, but Legend 4 Hero is ‘almost’ Demigod, so should work against Adept ( 4th dot ) Mage in MtAw, from what I read. But it’s only gut feeling on rules reading.
              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-27-2020, 06:12 AM.


              My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
              LGBT+ through Ages
              LGBT+ in CoD games

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
                So for my part, I ain't wading into them waters for a number of reasons. Meaning, i don't give a damn where a word came from, who thought of it first, etc. I'm replying strictly in the interest of ways to present the concept of supernatural forces within my Scion game, something I believe I have the consent from the authors to do and explore for my game, yes? While I'm all for being respectful, open minded and tolerant of different opinions, I'm not going to prostate myself before the altar of social justices de jure. And while censorship is all the rage these days, never been a fan of hearing only one side of a story, or needing someone to rescue me from someone else's opinions. So if I offend, that wasn't my intent, but maybe not being so eager to be offended might help too? Anyway.
                Allow me to establish a policy here that has probably been needed for awhile: this is not a forum for talking about the great cultural rifts of our time. It is a place to discuss games where you're the children of gods both historical and fictional beating the crap out of Titans with magical kung fu. With that in mind, this is the very definition of picking a fight and insulting your fellow posters. There is no great censorship fight to be had here and the attitude here is not only unwelcome but it is a terrible one to be had. Leave the thread and if you attack your fellow posters again, you will be banned.

                If you have a problem with a poster or a post then report it to the mods. No one without the title "Moderator" gets to tell other posters how to post.

                Also:


                Seriously, "prostrate myself before the altar of social justice?" What is this? 4chan?
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-27-2020, 03:55 PM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #83
                  Hey 4chan´s Exalted Page is a blast to read^^


                  Zum Thema:

                  I would treat a mages sanctum as Terra Incognita IF said sanctum negates outside reality (as seen in Mage the Ascension) and enforces a reality in favor of the mages Practice. That could make an encounter with a Mage inside his sanctum on Scion and Low demigod Level quite interesting when suddenly Purviews no longer work as intendet.At least until that stupid Scion of Athena or Osiris uses the Order Purview to to command the Brooms back into the closet. Problem with treating Mages the same way as in acension that unlike scions Mages cant order Reality around like a well trained Dog.

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                  • #84
                    Don't drink and post, people.

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                    • #85
                      Hm kinda related to mage the awakening. Instead of trying to transfer mtaw stuff onto scion it would be super interesting to buildup / write up a ... set of platonicist and neo-platonicist stuff. Since from my understanding mtaw ideas are heavily rooted in that source.

                      By set i mean stuff like.

                      Birthrights:
                      Stating Plato (and other philosophers of his school) as Guides.
                      Neo-platonist cults (naming them the escapees of the caves or something like that)

                      A few terra incognita. With possibly an Atlantis that would confuse the Teros haha.

                      Motifs, Omens and possible Fatebindings.

                      NPCs
                      Like having Diogenes as an antagonist would make for a very funny game.

                      I would avoid making a platonist or neo platonist pantheon because i dont think theres much God tier stuff there and i think people are too quick at making pantheons when theres ton more stuff to feature in scion. 😊


                      Completed campaign: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 3 year old daughter and a 2 years old son and now a beautiful new baby.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Mugbearer23 View Post
                        Hey 4chan´s Exalted Page is a blast to read^^


                        Zum Thema:

                        I would treat a mages sanctum as Terra Incognita IF said sanctum negates outside reality (as seen in Mage the Ascension) and enforces a reality in favor of the mages Practice. That could make an encounter with a Mage inside his sanctum on Scion and Low demigod Level quite interesting when suddenly Purviews no longer work as intendet.At least until that stupid Scion of Athena or Osiris uses the Order Purview to to command the Brooms back into the closet. Problem with treating Mages the same way as in acension that unlike scions Mages cant order Reality around like a well trained Dog.
                        Sanctum? There's a Sanctum Birthright in Demigod. It starts in a specific anchored location at the lower levels, but as you improve it you can expand it to conceptual things.

                        So for instance, you can start your Sanctum as being "My Restaurant", but at higher levels you can expand it to include "All restaurants that have a shrine to me"

                        Now, RAW, the Sanctum Birthright is exclusive to Demigods, BUT I don't think that things will break majorly if you restrict Sanctum to like... 1-2 Dots at Hero tier? Let me double check it.

                        Okay, having glanced at the Manuscript... 1 dot would probably be an acceptable limit for Hero tier, since adding Dots expands its reach rather than its efficacy. There's a few benefits to being in your Sanctum, such as recovering faster (which probably won't need any adjustment to make it a Mage Sanctum) or letting lower-tier characters make devotion or sacrifices to your character (this may need to get refluffed as some of your workers in the Sanctum doing... Something to recharge your juices)

                        By adding dots you can expand your Divine Sanctum to do things like "Add a Touchstone that you can teleport to and from", "Add a number of specific places or narrow category of places that count as your Sanctum now", and yes allowing your Sanctum to become the front door to a Midrealm or Overworld that you can make into your own God Realm. I personally would prevent a PC from having these until they reach Demigod tier. For both WoD style Mages and for Scions.

                        Edit: And to clarify I would recommend, if you allow a Sanctum at Hero tier play, to limit your PCs to precisely one singular dot of Sanctum. No buying five 1-dot Sancta.
                        Last edited by Kyman201; 11-28-2020, 02:43 AM.


                        Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                          Edit: And to clarify I would recommend, if you allow a Sanctum at Hero tier play, to limit your PCs to precisely one singular dot of Sanctum. No buying five 1-dot Sancta.
                          Limit simply to 'Sanctum 1 Dot maximum per Legend level', maybe? So 1 dot at Legend 1 but 5 dots on Legend 5 then? Sounds okay for me.


                          My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                          LGBT+ through Ages
                          LGBT+ in CoD games

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                          • #88
                            The concept of the teraphim in occult lore would make for interesting role-playing set ups. A "teraphim" (and I am likely to have that misspelled) was called "godmaking." Teraphim are supposed to be objects that are a part of the Soul of a deity. The concept is related to but distinct from the idea of the Avatar in Hindu lore.

                            With a Teraphim you can freely access part of a deity's power without their cooperation. A Teraphim and/or an understanding of its construction or form gives either power over a god or a deep/ unique understanding of the God the Teraphim is part of.

                            Example: Issac Newton thought the temple in Jerusalem was a Teraphim of Jehovah. Newton obsessively studyed everything the Bible and other ancient sources had to say about the temple.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                              Limit simply to 'Sanctum 1 Dot maximum per Legend level', maybe? So 1 dot at Legend 1 but 5 dots on Legend 5 then? Sounds okay for me.
                              No, because at Sanctum 2 you can conceivably set your Sanctum to be tied to a Midrealm to make your personal Godrealm, and that's a bit much for me at Hero Tier. You can set it up to include "All battlefields' as being your Sanctum


                              Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                                The concept of the teraphim in occult lore would make for interesting role-playing set ups. A "teraphim" (and I am likely to have that misspelled) was called "godmaking." Teraphim are supposed to be objects that are a part of the Soul of a deity. The concept is related to but distinct from the idea of the Avatar in Hindu lore.

                                With a Teraphim you can freely access part of a deity's power without their cooperation. A Teraphim and/or an understanding of its construction or form gives either power over a god or a deep/ unique understanding of the God the Teraphim is part of.

                                Example: Issac Newton thought the temple in Jerusalem was a Teraphim of Jehovah. Newton obsessively studyed everything the Bible and other ancient sources had to say about the temple.
                                Interesting idea. I could see a concept like this applying in Scion, with like, a Mantle of a deity going slightly rogue and acting in ways the "main" divinity isn't aware of, at least not completely.

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