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Esotericism in Scion

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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic Esotericism in Scion

    Esotericism in Scion

    Wanted to call topic ‘Occult in Scion’, but thought it would be confusing with games Occult Skill. 😎 I want to talk here about ‘magical traditions/practices’ in Scion setting. We lately analyze that Scion and Mage: The Awekening has A LOT of common elements. I wonder if we can deepen it on full esotericism and ‘magical traditions’ in Scion?

    For example…

    ( DISCLAIMER: Can we assume that in this topic, we are sticking to MYTHICAL reality - not the historical facts? Scion is based on idea that pagan gods are all to real - and our history and scientific reality points otherwise. In Scion we also have Rainbow Bridges, Giant Oak Tree in center of Cosmos, 8 Realms of other realities - and I only points to Aesir believes here - and our real world Earth science seems to point those things do not exist.

    So, returning to topic - If myths and legends says Tarot came from Egypt from times of pharaohs, in Scion it SHOULD be at least partially true. )
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-17-2020, 09:57 PM.

  • Seeker1728
    replied
    Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
    Seeker1728 and Dataweaver a little something for you both.

    ....
    Good stuff Astromancer , thanks for the link to the Picatrix, that was the copy I was considering when you first mentioned it, got plenty of reading material now for the month

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  • Astromancer
    replied
    Seeker1728 and Dataweaver a little something for you both.

    ​Let me suggest three more books. First Arbatel perhaps the best-written grimoire.

    Although Owen Davies has little regard for occult beliefs, his Grimoires: A History of Magic Books is probably the goto book on the subject. Many of this author's books are goldmines of information.

    Not directly an occult book, but a rich resource for the RPG player is Politics and the Occult, the Left, the Right, and the Radically Unseen. This broad history of the Occult's relationships to politics is a fountain of plot hooks.
    Last edited by Astromancer; 12-01-2020, 08:46 PM.

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  • Astromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post


    Astromancer you piqued my interest, I got a bookcase full of occult books but that one I haven't had mention of. Going to go take a look. Big thanks for the mention, appreciate your taking the time to suggest it.

    The book cited above has lots of data on the Picatrix. The Wikipedia link is for those less skilled in Google-fu. Here is a cheap copy of the the first half of the Picatrix for Kindel. Free is as cheap as it gets. Here's the second half. There are alternatives. Good luck.

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  • Astromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Could you cite a source for this, please? All I'm finding in a Google search is stuff about Jewish idols and idolatry, with a healthy dose of “the exact meaning of this term is unclear”.

    Having been lazy in citing sources I'll give you the best lead I can. The book I read about Teraphim in was Hermeticism and the Renaissance: Intellectual History and the Occult in Early Modern Europe (Folger Institute symposia) I once owned a copy, I lost it with about four-fifths of my books. If you want to read this book, and you and Seeker1728 want to read this book, try interlibrary loan and photocopy large sections.
    Last edited by Astromancer; 12-01-2020, 08:21 PM.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
    in a MTAW campaign this was a lot easier for me to port over and remain consistent with representing things Magi could know or discover, and I'd like to be able to do a similar "translation" if possible in my Scion campaign. (sorry for the constant references to that other franchise, I know the two are very different on a lot of levels but I like a fair amount of it's lore and wish to make use of it as much as I can.).
    I do not see a problem here. Mechanically speaking, all Antagonists are just stats templates, not very different from one another, but using same mechanics. On story level, each Awakened in MtAw generally filtered their knowledge by the Occult Skill already and general template of the being ( spirit, ghost, fae, etc. ) so research was, once again, personalized by the researcher point of view. You can easily do the same in the Scion, no special rules needed. Just follow general Investigation rules and you are golden.

    Originally posted by Seeker1728 View Post
    Demons and other such critters are often thing summoned by practitioners of magic who know how to do it (whatever that may entail), and I like the idea of "Magi" being less concerned with myth boundaries and being able to freely summon entities they have acquired the knowledge to do so.
    So simple give Magi Path ability of ‘Cross-Pantheon Magic’, I suppose? You simply declare that esotericism practitioners can summon powers from across Pantheons. I do not see a problem with that.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 12-01-2020, 04:56 AM.

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  • Seeker1728
    replied
    Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
    Seeker1728 have you read the Picatrix? It's an occult text, massively influential on Western Occult traditions and the first book in world history to state that education is a basic human right. The sections on the city of Adocentyn (the Wikipedia article on the Picatrix didn't mention Adocentyn, but there are articles online about Adocentyn) will fascinate you and provide vast floods of plot ideas.

    Astromancer you piqued my interest, I got a book case full of occult books but that one I haven't had mention of. Going to go take a look. Big thanks for the mention, appreciate your taking the time to suggest it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Astromancer
    replied
    Seeker1728 have you read the Picatrix? It's an occult text, massively influential on Western Occult traditions and the first book in world history to state that education is a basic human right. The sections on the city of Adocentyn (the Wikipedia article on the Picatrix didn't mention Adocentyn, but there are articles online about Adocentyn) will fascinate you and provide vast floods of plot ideas.
    Last edited by Astromancer; 11-30-2020, 09:55 PM.

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  • Seeker1728
    replied
    I managed to finish my copy of the Emerald Tablets over the weekend, that gave me lots of ideas for a MTAW campaign, but rendering it via Scion (due to how Magic vs Purviews are currently) is a bit of a trick to figure out. Aristarkos post here gave me some means to bring some of the book into the game world as a possible priesthood or mystery school. Relative to what I just read, obviously I want to figure out a way to tie this to the Netjer as the origin, but also let it move into the Theoi and general Hermetic traditions as perhaps a outgrowth or sub-school.

    Generally speaking, I'm less concerned with locking down things to only "allowed" origins, things drift and get borrowed, then renamed and given new purpose/direction. For my games it will be both easier to manage and portray the essential concept, with a given myth adding on their own take of things. I.E. one myth calls something a "spirit" the other a "demon" and yet another one something else entirely, but if you strip aside the labels and look at the function and role, then it's not so difficult to take a concept and let it manifest in different myths, especially in a Scion setting where there's likely to be at least a handful of pantheons co-existing if not more.

    As a side note, given that each pantheon has it's otherworldly "spirits" in it's myths, I was wondering how others are treating the concept of "Demons" as seen through other myths? In my understanding, while monotheistic myths have them as a standard and accepted thing, so too do the Shen, but other myths don't really seem to have them as a concept, at least not in the sense that I could say for example, oh Moloch is such and such to the Aesir or the Teotl.

    My reasons for asking are:
    • in a MTAW campaign this was a lot easier for me to port over and remain consistent with representing things Magi could know or discover, and I'd like to be able to do a similar "translation" if possible in my Scion campaign. (sorry for the constant references to that other franchise, I know the two are very different on a lot of levels but I like a fair amount of it's lore and wish to make use of it as much as I can.).
    • Demons and other such critters are often thing summoned by practitioners of magic who know how to do it (whatever that may entail), and I like the idea of "Magi" being less concerned with myth boundaries and being able to freely summon entities they have acquired the knowledge to do so.
    Last edited by Seeker1728; 11-30-2020, 09:22 PM.

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  • Astromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Could you cite a source for this, please? All I'm finding in a Google search is stuff about Jewish idols and idolatry, with a healthy dose of “the exact meaning of this term is unclear”.
    I'll have to find the title. It's from a book on Hermetic thought in the 16th and 17th centuries. I've got a reference to the book in my Amazon que. I once owned a copy. And it is likely I've made a misspelling.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
    The concept of the teraphim in occult lore would make for interesting role-playing set ups. A "teraphim" (and I am likely to have that misspelled) was called "godmaking." Teraphim are supposed to be objects that are a part of the Soul of a deity. The concept is related to but distinct from the idea of the Avatar in Hindu lore.

    With a Teraphim you can freely access part of a deity's power without their cooperation. A Teraphim and/or an understanding of its construction or form gives either power over a god or a deep/ unique understanding of the God the Teraphim is part of.

    Example: Issac Newton thought the temple in Jerusalem was a Teraphim of Jehovah. Newton obsessively studyed everything the Bible and other ancient sources had to say about the temple.
    Could you cite a source for this, please? All I'm finding in a Google search is stuff about Jewish idols and idolatry, with a healthy dose of “the exact meaning of this term is unclear”.

    Leave a comment:


  • Astromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by PXGentleman View Post

    Interesting idea. I could see a concept like this applying in Scion, with like, a Mantle of a deity going slightly rogue and acting in ways the "main" divinity isn't aware of, at least not completely.
    Deities like Athena or Osun would become aware quickly. But not all Mythic deities are that quick on the uptake.

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  • PXGentleman
    replied
    Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
    The concept of the teraphim in occult lore would make for interesting role-playing set ups. A "teraphim" (and I am likely to have that misspelled) was called "godmaking." Teraphim are supposed to be objects that are a part of the Soul of a deity. The concept is related to but distinct from the idea of the Avatar in Hindu lore.

    With a Teraphim you can freely access part of a deity's power without their cooperation. A Teraphim and/or an understanding of its construction or form gives either power over a god or a deep/ unique understanding of the God the Teraphim is part of.

    Example: Issac Newton thought the temple in Jerusalem was a Teraphim of Jehovah. Newton obsessively studyed everything the Bible and other ancient sources had to say about the temple.
    Interesting idea. I could see a concept like this applying in Scion, with like, a Mantle of a deity going slightly rogue and acting in ways the "main" divinity isn't aware of, at least not completely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kyman201
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

    Limit simply to 'Sanctum 1 Dot maximum per Legend level', maybe? So 1 dot at Legend 1 but 5 dots on Legend 5 then? Sounds okay for me.
    No, because at Sanctum 2 you can conceivably set your Sanctum to be tied to a Midrealm to make your personal Godrealm, and that's a bit much for me at Hero Tier. You can set it up to include "All battlefields' as being your Sanctum

    Leave a comment:


  • Astromancer
    replied
    The concept of the teraphim in occult lore would make for interesting role-playing set ups. A "teraphim" (and I am likely to have that misspelled) was called "godmaking." Teraphim are supposed to be objects that are a part of the Soul of a deity. The concept is related to but distinct from the idea of the Avatar in Hindu lore.

    With a Teraphim you can freely access part of a deity's power without their cooperation. A Teraphim and/or an understanding of its construction or form gives either power over a god or a deep/ unique understanding of the God the Teraphim is part of.

    Example: Issac Newton thought the temple in Jerusalem was a Teraphim of Jehovah. Newton obsessively studyed everything the Bible and other ancient sources had to say about the temple.

    Leave a comment:

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