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  • Yeah same as Kyman said, I overreacted a bit

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    • That being said, now that all the Flights are out... Good lord are the Flights underwhelming. To say nothing of times when they seem to be written in a tone that seems somewhat spiteful towards a lot of the gods.

      Which yes, I read the introduction, that's the point they're going with, but it still leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. When I read the first chapter I thought "Huh, if this were a World of Darkness property it'd probably go down with me easier" and I still think that.


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      • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
        That being said, now that all the Flights are out... Good lord are the Flights underwhelming. To say nothing of times when they seem to be written in a tone that seems somewhat spiteful towards a lot of the gods.

        Which yes, I read the introduction, that's the point they're going with, but it still leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. When I read the first chapter I thought "Huh, if this were a World of Darkness property it'd probably go down with me easier" and I still think that.
        To be honest, that's what I like. And to be even more honest, I got the sense they have a right to be a little bitter. Their entire world was erased from time and they were turned into secondary characters of their own stories. So, anger is to be expected, especially since a Dragon acting as a Dragon is refusing to act as a God. It helps that the Nagas, the most misanthropic Dragons, are explicitly straying away from their original purpose, and for a very good reason; Vasuki wants symbiosis, albeit with insurance, but there's a large human cult dedicated to hunting Nagas for selfish reasons specifically. No wonder a lot of them have just given up on the species.

        Unrelated: I'm looking over Mythos stuff in preparation for Masks of the Mythos, and I'm trying to think of a good writeup for Ithaqua after seeing Sandy Petersen's take on him. Because the thing about the Wind-Walker is that from the moment his storm manifests, he's there; he's just not quite as solid as other creatures, meaning he's absolutely unstoppable if he decides he wants to torment you, and he gets more and more stuff to do it with as his avatar stabilizes. That makes his presence wonderfully creepy, because you never stop being hunted. I'm also figuring out what makes a literal cannibal god a creature a sympathetic person can draw power from; I'm going for the idea that his distinct creation of wendigos comes from his desperation for a friend and having a child that surpasses him, making him among the most human of the Mythos - and the most inhuman, given the whole cannibal embodiment of outer space and frigid weather thing.


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        • I think that the reason I’m enjoying Dragon more than Mythos thus far is because everything that I don’t like about Dragon stems from one design tenet that’s easy to change, and one that the book even implicitly invites me to change, whereas Mythos’s current issues are with the mechanical underpinning and the “needed one more edit pass before the KS” feel.

          In all fairness, the idea that new pantheons retroactively cause their creation myth to be true is elegant from most angles, particularly from a gameplay perspective. It gives weight to a Demigod’s ascension and allows God to accommodate the creation of a new pantheon, one that will be as true as any other and won’t make players feel like second-class gods overshadowed by the old guard. I just can’t stand Demigod’s assertion that all gods and pantheons retroactively created themselves. It’s neat and tidy and devoid of that dash of holy mystery that Scion requires. Huitzilopochtli and Shiva should not be Sanderson-style gods with secret mortal backstories; Zeus is not by necessity Vivec. (“His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will.”)

          And Dragon doubles down hard on that in its presentation of the Secret Dragon Lore. They’re the beings that came before the gods! They remember things before all those pantheons started messing around with Fate with those retroactive Creations! It’s a natural progression, to be sure, but I’m not here for it. Fortunately, not only does the book invite me to tinker with the “real truth” about dragons, but even if I downplay that side of Scion’s dragons, there’s still usable hooks for them as a dangerous third party in the Titanomachy.

          The Draq? They have a valid complaint against the heavens in the slaying of Tiamat, and don’t need to predate the gods to view them as usurpers. The great hunger of the Joka need not necessarily stem from the great metaphysical loss of the prime timeline, and neither does the invasion of the Divine Realm and the mourning of the Naga. The Lindworms can still be disconnected and fractured from the strange memory-dreams of dragonkind, and the Lung can still think that they’d do a better job running the place. It does make them less justified in what they do and more ambitious, but they’re dragons. It’s in their nature.

          It’s a tweak, to be sure, but nothing I’ve seen thus far suggests it won’t be worth doing. Then again, we haven’t seen many of the mechanics yet, so it’s still possible that, say, the Heart of Tiamat will let you destroy the universe for three dots of Relic.

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          • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
            That being said, now that all the Flights are out... Good lord are the Flights underwhelming. To say nothing of times when they seem to be written in a tone that seems somewhat spiteful towards a lot of the gods.

            Which yes, I read the introduction, that's the point they're going with, but it still leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. When I read the first chapter I thought "Huh, if this were a World of Darkness property it'd probably go down with me easier" and I still think that.
            Well you didn't like it when it was announced and it's out now and you still don't like it.

            It may be....you won't like it period.

            Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-02-2021, 11:04 PM.


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            • As everyone is bringing their general opinion about the books, I will bring mine.

              I honestly was a bit hyped on Mythos and not much on Dragon.

              I like the idea of playing gods, not much gods, but the ascension and apotheosis that take you from mortal to god, the increasing level of power, the interaction with the world around and the mystic aspect of godhood. I love mythology, but I am far from interested in long researches about stories told by the ancients, I like the way we can interact with them now, from a different point of view, playing with cosmology and “the truth behind the myths”. Think playing Immortals in D&D, go there, interact with some mortals, than go around taking care of a plot you are preparing and trying to solve a imagery form 1000s of years ago.

              Mythos would bring it, basically by taking away the real world myths part. In the end Mythos bright part of that aspect, but working more like a extra pantheon which some weird magic, and less about opening doors to other worlds and getting fate behind. I really like the book so far, and it definitely open the discussion on the entire one myth to rules them all, and even let you put some gods as mythos scions that ascended and built pantheons by locality or whatever criteria. It also brings a way to increase a bit power without increasing legend, what allow you to have powerful sorceress that are mortal to all criteria, what I think is a great point that we miss in Scion (so far at least).

              In the other hand we have dragon, that I was expecting being more about the monsters from the legends bound by the fate, like any other mythological being, basically glorified Denizens. I know they talked about the dragons being older than gods, and all, but I honestly didn’t expected they would imply the gods did change the past by telling their stories and bending fate.

              Now Dragon bring exactly the things I expected originally from mythos, with a even more interesting idea of how the gods are connected to humanity and not the the universe itself. Also it have a new magic system (I LOVE NEW RULES) and a different way to play Scion, with the characters going in the loser side, playing low to avoid detection, not bound by fate or their patrons, at least as far as we can see in the book so far. Just awesome.

              in the end my hype changed sides and is more on Dragon and less on Mythos, but both are very interesting.


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              • Look. I expected liberties in Dragon. But I didn't expect this.

                Like, I've gone out to tell others about Scion 2e. I've spoken to people who've never heard of it as to its merits. And one of those?

                I've mentioned that Scion 2e is trying to be a lot more respectful to the faiths and cultures involved. And I know there's writers for the line that are sticking to that, and they do great work.

                But like, this is gonna have to be a MASSIVE asterisk slapped on that statement. Because I'm saying "They're trying to be more respectful" and then this book looms and starts roaring about how dragons are the oppressed minorities, how the Gods are all liars who trapped them in their Fate and Legends, and you have segments where like, the book mentions that Shiva doesn't understand that Vasuki is many-in-one and thus 'King of the Naga' is an inaccurate title, which is frankly absurd because one of the basic things you learn about the Deva is that 'Many-in-one' applies to THEM. So that statement comes across as either patronizing or ignorant of the Naga, when the book is completely on their side so far.

                The writing in Dragon shows an entirely different direction from the rest of Scion, in a way that it doesn't feel like a Scion book. It feels, as others have noted, like a World/Chronicles of Darkness book that has the Scion label slapped on it, and that's why I feel so disappointed in it.

                Edit: But I get that I may not be the majority here. I'm sure plenty of people who just wanted to get into Scion for a fun Urban Fantasy with Mythic Trappings will be fine with this. And like, as an Urban Fantasy game Dragon is... Fiiiine? But I think it loses some of what makes Scion interesting.
                Last edited by Kyman201; 02-03-2021, 02:52 AM.


                Disclaimer: In favor of fun and enjoyment, but may speak up to warn you that you're gonna step on a metaphorical land mine

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                • Yeah my biggest issue with Dragon is that it just kinda loses a lot of what makes Scion 2e stand out from other urban fantasy: the theistic tone and approach, the clear love the writing has for religions and their mythology, as well as respect to the real life people of those religions. Dragon just kinda ditches all that for a more standard urban fantasy set up, which on it’s own would be fine, but when compared to the rest of Scion 2e, I cant help but be disappointed, even tho dragons are my favorite thing ever

                  Also I’m still really stuck on why Shiva doesn’t understand that Vasuki is many-in-one, when that’s kinda part of the basic premise of the Deva as a pantheon? That they’re all separate beings but also the same, at the same time? Especially Shiva since he has tons of aspects, even outside of the traditions where he is the supreme god and thus all other gods are him as well as being separate beings
                  Last edited by Magicjohnny; 02-03-2021, 02:39 AM.

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                  • To each their own. Dragons are supposed to come off as alien to the pantheons, something that is partly their own mythology, partly not. So, urban fantasy it is, and it was always going to be a minigame within Scion. As an alternate setting focused on secrets and self-identity, one that points out how weird the World of Scion is and embraces the weirdness as signs of something deeper? Fine by me.

                    Mostly, I'm amazed at how I've been wowed by both books; both have bunches of character ideas that are unique to each gameline opened up.


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                    • Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                      (Mateus awesome sum-up)
                      I agree almost with everything by Mateus. Both Dragon and Mask of Mythos are expending Scion gameline about elements I really like. And 'dragons as repressed minority, taken by Fate-bending Gods propaganda' is appealing to me as 'alien threat' to Scion gameline at large - but still in frames of mythical RPG. Where Masks are totally different take on the line and 'outside of box' problem.
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-03-2021, 05:46 AM.


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                      • Reading Dragon Preview 2 - Lindwurms Flight - Heracles slew Vishap? I do not remember any myth like that...


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                        • Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                          Now Dragon bring exactly the things I expected originally from mythos, with a even more interesting idea of how the gods are connected to humanity and not the the universe itself.
                          But the gods are connected to the universe itself and not just humanity. The Trimurti are the universe. Odin carved the world from the body of Ymir before humanity existed. Zeus IS all weather. Etc etc. Unless those religions are wrong - which was not the pitch of Scion.


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                          • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                            Reading Dragon Preview 2 - Lindwurms Flight - Heracles slew Vishap? I do not remember any myth like that...
                            That is a great question... I may have a answer: Vahagn is the dragon killer and is identified as Heracles, check the link.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vahagn


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                            • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                              But the gods are connected to the universe itself and not just humanity. The Trimurti are the universe. Odin carved the world from the body of Ymir before humanity existed. Zeus IS all weather. Etc etc. Unless those religions are wrong - which was not the pitch of Scion.
                              That is what the gods want us to believe... Muahahahaha...

                              The point is, the gods changed the past with their legends, that’s stated in the book, mainly in demigod, where one of the Heroes notice that when her friend becomes a goddess, people already knew her as a goddess and worshiped her before her apotheosis.

                              The fact the gods change the past with their legends open a gap in the explaining: Was there a universe before the first god legend? And if yes, how was the past before the gods changed it? That’s where the dragons are, their myth is that the gods are liked to humanity and not the universe.


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                              • Mateus, great spots on metasetting of Scion and name of Heracles!

                                Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post

                                That is a great question... I may have a answer: Vahagn is the dragon killer and is identified as Heracles, check the link.

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vahagn
                                I think it should be pointed in Feedback form that first name of Heracles in Lindwurms description to be 'Heracles, known as Vahagn in Armenia...'


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