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  • Leliel
    replied
    To each their own. Dragons are supposed to come off as alien to the pantheons, something that is partly their own mythology, partly not. So, urban fantasy it is, and it was always going to be a minigame within Scion. As an alternate setting focused on secrets and self-identity, one that points out how weird the World of Scion is and embraces the weirdness as signs of something deeper? Fine by me.

    Mostly, I'm amazed at how I've been wowed by both books; both have bunches of character ideas that are unique to each gameline opened up.

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  • Magicjohnny
    replied
    Yeah my biggest issue with Dragon is that it just kinda loses a lot of what makes Scion 2e stand out from other urban fantasy: the theistic tone and approach, the clear love the writing has for religions and their mythology, as well as respect to the real life people of those religions. Dragon just kinda ditches all that for a more standard urban fantasy set up, which on it’s own would be fine, but when compared to the rest of Scion 2e, I cant help but be disappointed, even tho dragons are my favorite thing ever

    Also I’m still really stuck on why Shiva doesn’t understand that Vasuki is many-in-one, when that’s kinda part of the basic premise of the Deva as a pantheon? That they’re all separate beings but also the same, at the same time? Especially Shiva since he has tons of aspects, even outside of the traditions where he is the supreme god and thus all other gods are him as well as being separate beings
    Last edited by Magicjohnny; 02-03-2021, 02:39 AM.

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  • Kyman201
    replied
    Look. I expected liberties in Dragon. But I didn't expect this.

    Like, I've gone out to tell others about Scion 2e. I've spoken to people who've never heard of it as to its merits. And one of those?

    I've mentioned that Scion 2e is trying to be a lot more respectful to the faiths and cultures involved. And I know there's writers for the line that are sticking to that, and they do great work.

    But like, this is gonna have to be a MASSIVE asterisk slapped on that statement. Because I'm saying "They're trying to be more respectful" and then this book looms and starts roaring about how dragons are the oppressed minorities, how the Gods are all liars who trapped them in their Fate and Legends, and you have segments where like, the book mentions that Shiva doesn't understand that Vasuki is many-in-one and thus 'King of the Naga' is an inaccurate title, which is frankly absurd because one of the basic things you learn about the Deva is that 'Many-in-one' applies to THEM. So that statement comes across as either patronizing or ignorant of the Naga, when the book is completely on their side so far.

    The writing in Dragon shows an entirely different direction from the rest of Scion, in a way that it doesn't feel like a Scion book. It feels, as others have noted, like a World/Chronicles of Darkness book that has the Scion label slapped on it, and that's why I feel so disappointed in it.

    Edit: But I get that I may not be the majority here. I'm sure plenty of people who just wanted to get into Scion for a fun Urban Fantasy with Mythic Trappings will be fine with this. And like, as an Urban Fantasy game Dragon is... Fiiiine? But I think it loses some of what makes Scion interesting.
    Last edited by Kyman201; 02-03-2021, 02:52 AM.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    As everyone is bringing their general opinion about the books, I will bring mine.

    I honestly was a bit hyped on Mythos and not much on Dragon.

    I like the idea of playing gods, not much gods, but the ascension and apotheosis that take you from mortal to god, the increasing level of power, the interaction with the world around and the mystic aspect of godhood. I love mythology, but I am far from interested in long researches about stories told by the ancients, I like the way we can interact with them now, from a different point of view, playing with cosmology and “the truth behind the myths”. Think playing Immortals in D&D, go there, interact with some mortals, than go around taking care of a plot you are preparing and trying to solve a imagery form 1000s of years ago.

    Mythos would bring it, basically by taking away the real world myths part. In the end Mythos bright part of that aspect, but working more like a extra pantheon which some weird magic, and less about opening doors to other worlds and getting fate behind. I really like the book so far, and it definitely open the discussion on the entire one myth to rules them all, and even let you put some gods as mythos scions that ascended and built pantheons by locality or whatever criteria. It also brings a way to increase a bit power without increasing legend, what allow you to have powerful sorceress that are mortal to all criteria, what I think is a great point that we miss in Scion (so far at least).

    In the other hand we have dragon, that I was expecting being more about the monsters from the legends bound by the fate, like any other mythological being, basically glorified Denizens. I know they talked about the dragons being older than gods, and all, but I honestly didn’t expected they would imply the gods did change the past by telling their stories and bending fate.

    Now Dragon bring exactly the things I expected originally from mythos, with a even more interesting idea of how the gods are connected to humanity and not the the universe itself. Also it have a new magic system (I LOVE NEW RULES) and a different way to play Scion, with the characters going in the loser side, playing low to avoid detection, not bound by fate or their patrons, at least as far as we can see in the book so far. Just awesome.

    in the end my hype changed sides and is more on Dragon and less on Mythos, but both are very interesting.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
    That being said, now that all the Flights are out... Good lord are the Flights underwhelming. To say nothing of times when they seem to be written in a tone that seems somewhat spiteful towards a lot of the gods.

    Which yes, I read the introduction, that's the point they're going with, but it still leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. When I read the first chapter I thought "Huh, if this were a World of Darkness property it'd probably go down with me easier" and I still think that.
    Well you didn't like it when it was announced and it's out now and you still don't like it.

    It may be....you won't like it period.

    Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-02-2021, 11:04 PM.

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  • Raz_Fox
    replied
    I think that the reason I’m enjoying Dragon more than Mythos thus far is because everything that I don’t like about Dragon stems from one design tenet that’s easy to change, and one that the book even implicitly invites me to change, whereas Mythos’s current issues are with the mechanical underpinning and the “needed one more edit pass before the KS” feel.

    In all fairness, the idea that new pantheons retroactively cause their creation myth to be true is elegant from most angles, particularly from a gameplay perspective. It gives weight to a Demigod’s ascension and allows God to accommodate the creation of a new pantheon, one that will be as true as any other and won’t make players feel like second-class gods overshadowed by the old guard. I just can’t stand Demigod’s assertion that all gods and pantheons retroactively created themselves. It’s neat and tidy and devoid of that dash of holy mystery that Scion requires. Huitzilopochtli and Shiva should not be Sanderson-style gods with secret mortal backstories; Zeus is not by necessity Vivec. (“His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will.”)

    And Dragon doubles down hard on that in its presentation of the Secret Dragon Lore. They’re the beings that came before the gods! They remember things before all those pantheons started messing around with Fate with those retroactive Creations! It’s a natural progression, to be sure, but I’m not here for it. Fortunately, not only does the book invite me to tinker with the “real truth” about dragons, but even if I downplay that side of Scion’s dragons, there’s still usable hooks for them as a dangerous third party in the Titanomachy.

    The Draq? They have a valid complaint against the heavens in the slaying of Tiamat, and don’t need to predate the gods to view them as usurpers. The great hunger of the Joka need not necessarily stem from the great metaphysical loss of the prime timeline, and neither does the invasion of the Divine Realm and the mourning of the Naga. The Lindworms can still be disconnected and fractured from the strange memory-dreams of dragonkind, and the Lung can still think that they’d do a better job running the place. It does make them less justified in what they do and more ambitious, but they’re dragons. It’s in their nature.

    It’s a tweak, to be sure, but nothing I’ve seen thus far suggests it won’t be worth doing. Then again, we haven’t seen many of the mechanics yet, so it’s still possible that, say, the Heart of Tiamat will let you destroy the universe for three dots of Relic.

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  • Leliel
    replied
    Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
    That being said, now that all the Flights are out... Good lord are the Flights underwhelming. To say nothing of times when they seem to be written in a tone that seems somewhat spiteful towards a lot of the gods.

    Which yes, I read the introduction, that's the point they're going with, but it still leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. When I read the first chapter I thought "Huh, if this were a World of Darkness property it'd probably go down with me easier" and I still think that.
    To be honest, that's what I like. And to be even more honest, I got the sense they have a right to be a little bitter. Their entire world was erased from time and they were turned into secondary characters of their own stories. So, anger is to be expected, especially since a Dragon acting as a Dragon is refusing to act as a God. It helps that the Nagas, the most misanthropic Dragons, are explicitly straying away from their original purpose, and for a very good reason; Vasuki wants symbiosis, albeit with insurance, but there's a large human cult dedicated to hunting Nagas for selfish reasons specifically. No wonder a lot of them have just given up on the species.

    Unrelated: I'm looking over Mythos stuff in preparation for Masks of the Mythos, and I'm trying to think of a good writeup for Ithaqua after seeing Sandy Petersen's take on him. Because the thing about the Wind-Walker is that from the moment his storm manifests, he's there; he's just not quite as solid as other creatures, meaning he's absolutely unstoppable if he decides he wants to torment you, and he gets more and more stuff to do it with as his avatar stabilizes. That makes his presence wonderfully creepy, because you never stop being hunted. I'm also figuring out what makes a literal cannibal god a creature a sympathetic person can draw power from; I'm going for the idea that his distinct creation of wendigos comes from his desperation for a friend and having a child that surpasses him, making him among the most human of the Mythos - and the most inhuman, given the whole cannibal embodiment of outer space and frigid weather thing.

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  • Kyman201
    replied
    That being said, now that all the Flights are out... Good lord are the Flights underwhelming. To say nothing of times when they seem to be written in a tone that seems somewhat spiteful towards a lot of the gods.

    Which yes, I read the introduction, that's the point they're going with, but it still leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. When I read the first chapter I thought "Huh, if this were a World of Darkness property it'd probably go down with me easier" and I still think that.

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  • Magicjohnny
    replied
    Yeah same as Kyman said, I overreacted a bit

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  • Kyman201
    replied
    So on a second read, I may have been a smidge uncharitable going right to "They want to purge humanity" since there are some Serpent writeups that (in defiance of the tones mentioned at the start of the Flight Blurb and the end blurb) seem to think tossing the ones responsible in the underworld is 'Too far' and some making points to try and protect vulnerable populations.

    I lay this mostly at my having read five previous Flights, found maybe one of them that engaging, the rest underwhelming, and when I got to Serpent and it opened with another "The world was once great, but then humanity fucked it up with pollution, and the Dragons tried to stop them, but the Gods were meanies who just wanted worship" so I was less inclined to be charitable with the Serpent writeup.

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  • Leliel
    replied
    Originally posted by Magicjohnny View Post
    Like if a lot of the gods can be environmentalist while still being not being ecofascist and genocidal towards mankind, why can’t the Dragons? Especially since it means you have several Dragons who can not have anything but a very antagonistic role to the player group

    Uh, what Dragons? Certainly not the Serpents, who explicitly are having trouble with saving the Earth because they're spooked about accidentally killing humanity with it and wanting to avoid that if at all possible.

    And, seriously, you seem to have missed that there's a literal mechanic for rebellion against Dragons and what they want you to be; it's in their Virtue track. The path that leads to greater power being the path that serves someone morally ambiguous and probably a bit lost in the ideal past seems like a feature, not a bug.

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  • Magicjohnny
    replied
    Also I’m confused about the Dead dragon flight stretch goal, we already have plenty of dead Dragons in the main Flights, so why do we need a whole factions dedicated to them? It just feels like faction bloating

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  • FallenEco
    replied
    I do find it a little disappointing that these write ups including a number of factions with no examples in the patrons.

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  • Magicjohnny
    replied
    Honestly so far only the Longs seem to be interesting, every other Flight is just kinda disappointing and the lore in general is just very jarring and just doesn’t feel Scion, also it’s weird that Shiva of all people doesn’t understand the Many in one, one in many thing about Vasuki and the Nagas

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  • jollycooperative
    replied
    If I had to tackle the Ecoterrorism angle I'd take a page out of Monsterverse Godzilla. They're primordial forces so far above the average human that they're more like natural disasters - a natural disaster doesn't care about individuals, just like the people who suffer the most from climate disasters aren't the ones who cause them.

    So in this case a Dragon interacts with humanity as a whole and acts accordingly in order to fix what it sees as an imbalance. A Dragon who wants to stop a deforestation crisis will smash flat all the logging camps and burn the workers there alive. A particularly smart dragon might even follow the patterns that create these imbalances and stop them at the source. But they'll never stop to ask any one person how to do it, or settle for a long term approach of compromise and collaboration. Who cares about humans? They're weak squishy things and barely even exist. They'd better stay out of your way.

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