Lovecraftian mythos in Scion

[Mateus Luz]

Azathot can be described as Primordials, having little to no interaction with humans, as does most of the primordials in Scion.

The Outer Gods could be Titans, with agendas that have little to no interaction with humans, except for cultists that siphon a infinitesimal part of their powers to do stuff (like creating Scions).

Leaving space for the great old ones that we see in the Mythos, that interact and play with humans. There is also a big list of great old ones that are pretty selfish, have tasks or objectives that are so important that humans are just collaterals, or just like to play and torture humans. This ones are the ones that a probably easier to bring into the game, as they interact with humans now and then, some of them “being the true behind the myths of old”, like Nodens, Bast and Sobek, and some use humans to keep active on Earth, like Hastur.

[Dataweaver]

I would suggest that one way to address the relation between those Old Ones and other Pantheons would be to describe the Lovecraftian pantheon at least in part as a Pantheon of parasites. If Sobek, for example, is an Old One who is seeking to co-opt a Netjer Mantle.

And if you think that it's disrespectful to the Lovecraftian Mythos to demote its “the truth behind other mythologies” to “would-be thieves”, you're right. But that's one of the reasons why there are conflicts in attempting to mix Lovecraft with mythology.

[Astromancer]

The most true to the author take on Lovecraft's mythos is that the great old ones see humanity the way we see cockroaches. They are alien and find us to be of no importance, although we may be in the way. That's the key problem. Zeus and Odin, Oshun and Kali, Lugh and White Buffalo Woman, all care about humans. Yog-sothoth doesn't and many of the great old ones simply can't care about humanity.

[Hark]

I would tend to see Cthulhu Mythos gods as ‘new gods’ which would make them good antagonists to the old gods represented by the PC Scions. The fact that the Cthulhu Mythos are nihilistic and apocalyptic even more so - I’m thinking a sort of Never Ending Story scenario (albeit set in the World), where old myths are dying out as the winds of nihilism take hold.

I'm personally inclined to follow the Lovecraft lore and have the various being from the mythos be far older than humanity and the gods. They have been asleep since long before humans evolved and are only just now awakening. I guess you can interpret that has being new gods, but I like the tone of beings unknown to the gods and much older showing up and shacking things up.

As far as their attitude, they are utterly alien in mindset to humans, but they are also apathetic toward humans. Not because they don't care about humans, but because humans are so much lesser a being than them that we may as well be ants.

Scions, demigods, and gods should get their attention though. But they may view our gods as little more than infants of another species crying for attention given the age gap.

[nalak42]

To my mind some fun options to go with would be stuff like: (This is ignoring the traditional they are and we don't know why deal)
1) Destroyed mantles that somehow reconnected, merged, and so on to become their own thing. Maybe they went through the same ascension process as other Deities maybe they didn't details unclear.

2) Something went wrong. Maybe an attempt at becoming a God, maybe an attempt at becoming a Titan went wrong.

3) This was a desired outcome. I don't know how to clarify this further, it just sounds awesome and terrifying to imagine the idea that someone decided that something like Shub-Niggurath was an ideal fertility deity.
3a) Welcome to the retconning of Fate kiddies. These things exist because they have always been since the beginning and maybe before then since whatever made them decided that was how old they were. That we haven't reached the part in the timeline where these things originated and were retconned back through to the start is immaterial. (May also explain various complications and issues with dealing with them if you go with the angle that these are shadows on time.)

[Penelope]

Why can’t both exist in the same universe? The Great Old Ones as alien deities from beyond the stars who predate humanity by millions (or even billions) of years and the pantheons from regular Scion as younger gods who arise during the Mythic Age of humanity. I don’t see a problem with both existing and maybe occasionally conflicting over worshippers or some sinister scheme by the Old Ones to eradicate human civilization, but then again I’m not an expert in either Scion or Lovecraft (or RPG design in general).

[Mateus Luz]

I would suggest that one way to address the relation between those Old Ones and other Pantheons would be to describe the lovecraftian pantheon at least in part as a Pantheon of parasites. Its Sobek, for example, is an Old One who is selling to co-opt a Netjer Mantle.

I don’t think we need to put them as parasites, probably thieves or impersonators. One of the things I like to think is the Title Masks of the Mythos point us in that direction. The great old ones can be scions of the outer gods that stole (or created their own) mantles (in a certain way a mask) of the “local” gods, as the cults of the outer gods increase in power on Earth and look for more cultists.

Imagine how easier it is to bring cultists from other religions when you have “one of their gods” on your side, and this people don’t understand it’s another god using a mantle that seams to belong to their original god, they see the guy with a Crocodile head, dressed as Sobek, with divine powers that mirror Sobek’s powers and they believe it’s the real Sobek. You don’t need to be accepted by the population, nor build temples, or steal relics from the other temple, the temple suddenly is open to you and your cult, with all they is inside.

All they need is the local gods to be unaware for long enough tao they can turn the faith around, and gods, as immortal beings probably can take some 30 years vacations to build a new mantle or to take it easy after a big event.

[Kyman201]

Why can’t both exist in the same universe? The Great Old Ones as alien deities from beyond the stars who predate humanity by millions (or even billions) of years and the pantheons from regular Scion as younger gods who arise during the Mythic Age of humanity. I don’t see a problem with both existing and maybe occasionally conflicting over worshippers or some sinister scheme by the Old Ones to eradicate human civilization, but then again I’m not an expert in either Scion or Lovecraft (or RPG design in general).

Because:

1. The Great Old Ones at best don't care about humanity and at worst actively dislike humanity. This is, to use the technical term, boring, in the context of Scion. Most Gods have some emotional investment in humanity, such as Ganesha being quite fond of people, to Tezcatlipoca dicking around with a bunch of people. Sitting off to the side and going "Meh" about humanity is... Not engaging in a game like Scion.

2. The nihilistic cosmic dread of the Cthulhu Cosmic Horror angle ("The closest thing to gods are great alien beings that don't gives a shit about you") falls apart when you point at literally any other God that say "Yeah but Thor cares about me", which kind of... Utterly destroys the main thematic strength and theme of the Mythos.

3. "Competing for Worshippers" isn't something that'd likely happen because again, the Old Ones don't give a shit about humanity. They wouldn't give a shit about worshippers. Also, they have a REALLY shitty recruitment pitch.

"So, I've pledged my life to a giant tentacle creature that hates me, wants to destroy everything, and the best thing it's willing to offer me is that when it breaks through reality to unmake all it will eat me first!"

"... Bruh my Gods have been known to leave and take the concept of agriculture with them because we didn't make enough offerings and I think that sounds like a shit deal."

4. The Cthulhu Beings are kinda chumps. There's lots of "Oh these beings are older than the Gods and Humans" but y'know what? The Teotl are on their fifth sun and fifth creation of humanity. The Deva have been through THOUSANDS of cycles of humanity and the World. "Oh, Azathoth can unmake everything if he wakes up" yeah and Shiva's going to unmake everything in like 150,000 years, and then Brahma will make a new one, and they'll go about it again like they have done countless times before.

Also, ultimately... The Lovecraft Beings aren't a myth. They're not a religion. They're a pop culture meme created by a shit person who only realized at the end of his life that he was a shit person, and since then was made into something very different by countless other writers, but they are ultimately far less impressive and far less interesting than the various other religions in our world.

I don't mind Masks of the Mythos existing because everything I've heard about it suggests to me that it's going to be an isolated setting, because 99% of what makes Lovecraft Lovecraft just flat-out doesn't work if you cross it over with, y'know, the Gods of our World.

[Penelope]

Kyman201 damn...

But if you’re right a Masks of the Mythos setting is gonna be really BORING. Not to mention hopeless and nihilistic. And defo no crossover with regular Scion (and I like regular Scion).

Can I change things if I run Masks of the Mythos (or play in it) so it’s more like I said in my post above?

Anyway, I’ll probably still back the Kickstarter (cause like it’s not that much money and what else am I gonna spend it on anyway with everything closed?) but this is definitely disappointing. But thanks though.

[Mateus Luz]

To play a Mythos themed game you must embrace the thematics, the same way as to play a Ragnarok themed game you must embrace it’s thematics. Adding Mythos to Scion, as adding Dragons, is not different from adding any other pantheon and how it changes the general theme of the original legends.

You can make the great old ones titans and make them adversaries of the gods, maybe as old enemies (the Titans were “corrupted” gods) or as an invasor army (the Theros may have crossed paths with them and came back to advise the other gods on the fight coming in their way). It would keep the general theme of a Titanomachy game without the “Titans are gods that were victims of prejudice” aspect.

You can also make the “all myths are true” aspect a lie the gods tell to justify their actions, when indeed all gods were once scions that ascended for different reasons and methods, much like the great old ones, and eventually formed pantheons of “like minded” gods and invented their creation myths, while the real origin of the universe is that it’s a dream of Azatoth. This one is not much different from the Masters thematics, as the masters may be trying to remove the old gods and placing themselves in their places (and it would make more sense than uncreated the other gods by creating just one more creation myth).

[Sakii]

Kyman201 damn...

But if you’re right a Masks of the Mythos setting is gonna be really BORING. Not to mention hopeless and nihilistic. And defo no crossover with regular Scion (and I like regular Scion).

Can I change things if I run Masks of the Mythos (or play in it) so it’s more like I said in my post above?

Anyway, I’ll probably still back the Kickstarter (cause like it’s not that much money and what else am I gonna spend it on anyway with everything closed?) but this is definitely disappointing. But thanks though.

You can change anything you want, since its your story.
I would wait until we have the manuscript/book to make decisions because we still dont know what will be the vision of the author. They could be easier of harder to integrate depending on how they do it.

[Kyman201]

Kyman201 damn...

But if you’re right a Masks of the Mythos setting is gonna be really BORING. Not to mention hopeless and nihilistic. And defo no crossover with regular Scion (and I like regular Scion).

Can I change things if I run Masks of the Mythos (or play in it) so it’s more like I said in my post above?

Anyway, I’ll probably still back the Kickstarter (cause like it’s not that much money and what else am I gonna spend it on anyway with everything closed?) but this is definitely disappointing. But thanks though.

Everything I've heard about the Masks of the Mythos book makes me think that the book is going to assume it's a setting with no other Gods. Which is good, because that is where I think the thing is at its strongest. There's definite ideas to be toyed with using Scion's system and Cthulhu-adjacent trappings, stories of "Wow these Gods don't care at all", stories of "I am becoming something alien and I'm not sure I'm okay with how okay I am with it", stories of wanting to just go apeshit and become a fish-person. But I still think these work best when there's no other competition.

However, OPP understand that some people will wanna play Cthulhu Scions in regular games, so you can probably sideport the mechanics from the Masks book into Mainline Scion. Like, MECHANICALLY I'm sure it'll be easy to sideport in, but I think that thematically you'll lose some of Cthulhu & Co's biggest strengths if you port it over into Mainline Scion.

I personally have no interest in the Lovecraft Mythos, for the reasons I cited above, and think that anything aside from the Cosmic Horror angle can be done with the Core pantheons.

Want big cosmic entities that outright say "I exist on a level you can't understand and frankly you can't even comprehend my true form, have some forbidden sorcery"? The Teotl and the Deva can fit that niche nicely. Hell, they even have some jackasses among them, so if you want that sense of being a cosmic plaything, Tezcatlipoca exists.

Wanna be a squid baby? Tangaroa of the Atua is right there in Demigod.

You can put them in your mainline Scion games, but... Like you said, if you just port them in as-is without adjusting them so much that they don't really feel quite the same... Then you're just using Nyarlithotep for name recognition. And like, I've seen a LOT of bending over backwards to try and buff up the Cthulhu beasties while downplaying the Actual Gods of Actual Religions, which feels unfair to me.

Like... If you go "Well we can go with how the Deva SAY that they're big and cosmic but that's what they say they are and they're really no older than the records we have of the Deva" and then go "So let's assume the Outer Gods and Old Ones are if anything older than Lovecraft said they were"... That's not really fair, is it? Because if you go by "Well I'm going to say that the Deva are no older than our archaeology records", then you gotta apply the same standards to Lovecraft's brainlings, and thus Cthulhu is less than a century old but says he's been around since before time itself was a thing.

[glamourweaver]

Kyman201 damn...

But if you’re right a Masks of the Mythos setting is gonna be really BORING. Not to mention hopeless and nihilistic.

If it’s not hopeless and nihilistic, it’s Lovecraft. If you don’t want hopeless nihilism, why would you be interested in a Lovecraft supplement? That’s literally what cosmic horror is, the realization of utterly powerless meaninglessness.

[Penelope]

If it’s not hopeless and nihilistic, it’s Lovecraft. If you don’t want hopeless nihilism, why would you be interested in a Lovecraft supplement? That’s literally what cosmic horror is, the realization of utterly powerless meaninglessness.

Having your Scions (of the traditional Pantheons) fight cultists who worship the Great Old Ones, then more powerful minions of the Great Old Ones, then when they reach God level fight the Great Old Ones themselves. Not destroy them obviously, but force them to retreat to the Outer Dark. Kind of like She-Ra Princess of Power but with more tentacles.

You don’t understand. I like the idea of ancient nonhuman monster gods from beyond the stars, but I don’t like the idea of them being unbeatable or utterly indifferent to humanity. And I think my idea is just as valid as hopeless nihilism (which I defo don’t like). But I’m gonna back the Kickstarter and wait till I’ve read the manuscript to officially decide how I feel.

[glamourweaver]

Having your Scions (of the traditional Pantheons) fight cultists who worship the Great Old Ones, then more powerful minions of the Great Old Ones, then when they reach God level fight the Great Old Ones themselves. Not destroy them obviously, but force them to retreat to the Outer Dark. Kind of like She-Ra Princess of Power but with more tentacles.

You don’t understand. I like the idea of ancient nonhuman monster gods from beyond the stars, but I don’t like the idea of them being unbeatable or utterly indifferent to humanity. And I think my idea is just as valid as hopeless nihilism (which I defo don’t like). But I’m gonna back the Kickstarter and wait till I’ve read the manuscript to officially decide how I feel.

That’s not Lovecraft Mythos. If the world has gods that bring cosmic meaning, then there is not inherent horror of cosmic meaninglessness, thus giving no point to using Lovecraft beyond “fish aesthetic”.

i mean you can subvert Lovecraft in a setting via HUMANITY overcoming cosmic meaninglessness (this is what Chthulhutech was trying for and what Pacific Rim hit out of the park) - but pro-humanity divinity means the world was never cold and unfeeling in the first place and so there is no inherent horror in what the Mythos represents. It renders the whole exercise thematically pointless