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Lovecraftian mythos in Scion

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post

    Having your Scions (of the traditional Pantheons) fight cultists who worship the Great Old Ones, then more powerful minions of the Great Old Ones, then when they reach God level fight the Great Old Ones themselves. Not destroy them obviously, but force them to retreat to the Outer Dark. Kind of like She-Ra Princess of Power but with more tentacles.

    You don’t understand. I like the idea of ancient nonhuman monster gods from beyond the stars, but I don’t like the idea of them being unbeatable or utterly indifferent to humanity. And I think my idea is just as valid as hopeless nihilism (which I defo don’t like). But I’m gonna back the Kickstarter and wait till I’ve read the manuscript to officially decide how I feel.
    You've kind of answered your own concern. In the context of the Mythos humanity is weak and everything is pointless and humans stand no chance. This is Scion though, you don't play humans, you play Scions and wield divinity as your weapon against the Great Old Ones. They may not care, but you have the power to make them care. Even in Lovecraft own stories thier are God who wield the power of divinity to protect humanity from the horrors of the mythos.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

      That’s not Lovecraft Mythos. If the world has gods that bring cosmic meaning, then there is not inherent horror of cosmic meaninglessness, thus giving no point to using Lovecraft beyond “fish aesthetic”.

      i mean you can subvert Lovecraft in a setting via HUMANITY overcoming cosmic meaninglessness (this is what Chthulhutech was trying for and what Pacific Rim hit out of the park) - but pro-humanity divinity means the world was never cold and unfeeling in the first place and so there is no inherent horror in what the Mythos represents. It renders the whole exercise thematically pointless
      Then I guess I like the fish aesthetic.

      Seriously. I like the cool parts of the Mythos and I don’t like the cosmic meaninglessness part. Why isn’t my interpretation just as valid as anyone else’s?

      Anyway. I’m looking forward to Masks of the Mythos and I can’t wait to read all the Lovecraft setting info and decide for myself whether I want to integrate the other Pantheons or not. Let’s put this on hold till the actual Kickstarter comes out, kay?


      “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

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      • #33
        To interject a little something.
        Its important to note that baseline scion already has both cosmic horror and existential horror in the setting if you look for it.

        For examples of cosmic horror you have threats like Apep wanting to literally eat the sun. Which is pretty cosmic and fairly horrifying to thing of it happening.
        Another example would be the Tzitzimime pf Aztec mythology which are squeleton "demons" from the stars (or even the stars themselves) and want to come to earth to eat people (or help someone give birth, its 50/50). If you look to the night sky and count the stars, each is a tzitzimime so the number of the threat is pretty horrifying (and cosmic).

        As for existential horror, i feel there are 2 places it can be found in the setting.
        You have firstly what apotheosis means.
        The processes of becoming a god include shedding your mortality. In some pantheon that would mean discarding everything that makes you a person. Which is a pretty horrifying propect.
        And even in pantheon where its less extreme there is always something that is forever lost or altered.

        The other aspect of existential horror (or at least existential dread) is found in the fact that the gods are not sustained by beliefs in any way.
        For many pantheons the destruction of all of hukanity just means they can cook up a new batch this this time (maybe trying out plastic instead of clay this time).
        Sure, respect, devotions and offerings can influence the gods somewhat. But ultimately what happens depends on decisions of the gods and titans.
        Now unlike the lovecraft mythos the gods care or are at least interested in humanity and that can shave off a bit of the horror.

        All that said to mean that the existential and cosmic horror of the cthullu mythos are not that difficult to integrate to the setting.
        The real difficulty is how you make them interact with humanity if they dont care. Especially when you have similar powerful and more powerful entities that do care about humanity that can be interacted with instead.

        (I hope i wasnt too meandering. Its hard to write a long post while looking over the kids haha)


        Completed campaign: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 3 year old daughter and a 2 years old son and now a beautiful new baby.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Penelope View Post

          Then I guess I like the fish aesthetic.

          Seriously. I like the cool parts of the Mythos and I don’t like the cosmic meaninglessness part. Why isn’t my interpretation just as valid as anyone else’s?

          Anyway. I’m looking forward to Masks of the Mythos and I can’t wait to read all the Lovecraft setting info and decide for myself whether I want to integrate the other Pantheons or not. Let’s put this on hold till the actual Kickstarter comes out, kay?
          Your interpretation is completely fine too! There is no canon or anything with the Cthulhu mythos because he and his myriad of writer buddies played around a lot, borrowed from each other and made pastiches all the time of each other's stuff. Even calling it "Lovecraftian" which many do is to my mind missleading since it really was a collective creation from the very beginning, all the way during Lovecraft's own lifetime until now when tons of lovecraftian entertainment is still beign made and going strong..

          THe thing you are talking about is called Lovecraft-lite, it is a term for when you borrow whatever cool edgy stuff you want from the Lovecraft mythos and while they are scary you more or less ditch the extreme cosmic horror and inject humanity and heroism into it. There are plenty of games that do this so it is a perfectly valid approach. I like it a lot and use that approach often in different games, especially fantasy games. Even the creators of the Call of Cthulhu games did this too hen they published Pulp Cthulhu where the characters are a lot tougher and better at weathering the horrors.

          The really good point though, which Maitrecorbo already did, is that you don't really need the Cthulhu mythos to have the things you describe. The main villains of the setting, the TItans and their cults, do an amazing job at being cool, horrific and cosmic-scale threats to humanity while not being boring like many Mythos monstrousities (i.e. having personalities and plenty of lore).

          I go to "Lovecraftian" mythos when I want a horrifying game of facing the alien and unknown and surviving unspeakable horrors. I go to Scion when I want a fun, action-packed game where I can gush about cool and interesting gods and really get some use of my mythology nerdiness. The idea of mixing these two things is mystifying to me. I am curious and I think they will probably do a good job at it but I seriously doubt it will feel like a proper game of either genre should feel.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post

            Your interpretation is completely fine too! There is no canon or anything with the Cthulhu mythos because he and his myriad of writer buddies played around a lot, borrowed from each other and made pastiches all the time of each other's stuff. Even calling it "Lovecraftian" which many do is to my mind missleading since it really was a collective creation from the very beginning, all the way during Lovecraft's own lifetime until now when tons of lovecraftian entertainment is still beign made and going strong..

            THe thing you are talking about is called Lovecraft-lite, it is a term for when you borrow whatever cool edgy stuff you want from the Lovecraft mythos and while they are scary you more or less ditch the extreme cosmic horror and inject humanity and heroism into it. There are plenty of games that do this so it is a perfectly valid approach. I like it a lot and use that approach often in different games, especially fantasy games. Even the creators of the Call of Cthulhu games did this too hen they published Pulp Cthulhu where the characters are a lot tougher and better at weathering the horrors.

            The really good point though, which Maitrecorbo already did, is that you don't really need the Cthulhu mythos to have the things you describe. The main villains of the setting, the TItans and their cults, do an amazing job at being cool, horrific and cosmic-scale threats to humanity while not being boring like many Mythos monstrousities (i.e. having personalities and plenty of lore).

            I go to "Lovecraftian" mythos when I want a horrifying game of facing the alien and unknown and surviving unspeakable horrors. I go to Scion when I want a fun, action-packed game where I can gush about cool and interesting gods and really get some use of my mythology nerdiness. The idea of mixing these two things is mystifying to me. I am curious and I think they will probably do a good job at it but I seriously doubt it will feel like a proper game of either genre should feel.
            Thank you 😊

            Maitrecorbo I agree. That’s why I think the gods of the Mythos should care about humanity. They can care in a negative malevolent hateful way, but they should care. Not caring at all just isn’t that interesting.


            “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

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            • #36
              It can be very interesting, if done right. They still have followers on Earth, who are actively doing things that are going to affect your life; so while they may not care about you, you still have plenty of reason to care about them if you don't want to be trampled underfoot.


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              • #37
                Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                To play a Mythos themed game you must embrace the thematics, the same way as to play a Ragnarok themed game you must embrace it’s thematics. Adding Mythos to Scion, as adding Dragons, is not different from adding any other pantheon and how it changes the general theme of the original legends.

                You can make the great old ones titans and make them adversaries of the gods, maybe as old enemies (the Titans were “corrupted” gods) or as an invasor army (the Theros may have crossed paths with them and came back to advise the other gods on the fight coming in their way). It would keep the general theme of a Titanomachy game without the “Titans are gods that were victims of prejudice” aspect.
                Mateus Luz, I generally support your vision and hope the Masks of the Mythos will include those, fingers crossed. Now I will steal this perfect idea for the What to do with Theros of Atlantis? topic.


                My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                LGBT+ through Ages
                LGBT+ in CoD games

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                • #38
                  What we know from the podcast about Scion: Masks of the Mythos (MotM for short) ...

                  MotM is the Scion horror expansion book that expands the setting with a cosmic horror.

                  MotM assumes that the Great Old Ones and other Cthulhu Mythos exist in the World with normal Gods - but actually operate outside of reality, outside of normal rules. Divinity is their metaphor for existence, but they actually exist outside of these principles. There are no Mythos Titans - they are all Titans-like to other deities.

                  • There are 13 Great Old Ones Patrons in MotM.

                  • The Scions of the Mythos have a dark, twisted Fate - and they infect the world around with it. Most are Chosen (by the Stars) or Created - only a few are Born.

                  • Most of the game is about finding a balance between your human half - and the cosmic terror you bring to the world. 'Dark Hero' to say that. A bit like the Scions of the Titans. Only you corrupt the World by your presence.

                  • The Scions of Mythos do not have a Legend - they have an Awareness instead - although they generally do the same. Besides, they receive a different version of Purviews and Callings.

                  MotM, following the tradition of the normal Call of Cthulhu RPG, extends the Procedurals rules to turn Scions into investigators and researchers of the Lovecraft canon and others. ❤

                  http://metahedronstudios.com/polyhed...ielle-and-neal
                  Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-19-2021, 05:19 PM.


                  My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                  LGBT+ through Ages
                  LGBT+ in CoD games

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                  • #39
                    Awareness leading to “Fate-binding”, where the Date of the Mythos has a corrupting effect. Not precisely the Sanity mechanic from Call of Cthulhu; but I can see parallels.


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                    • #40
                      I think cultural understanding of Lovecrafts mythos will pull a lot weight when it comes to integrating into Scion in a Pulpy Lovecraft-lite kind of way.

                      If your doing say a Theoi only game and want that immediate sense of "The Other" to throw everything off, something specifically not in the Theoi's wheel house so a Titan won't apply, instead of needing to introduce a new pantheon the players may not be familiar with and explain that whole mythos, I think for pressured or casual GM's just going "Its Cthulhu" will pull a lot of the work explaining what's going on to players while having that childish cool factor of "Oh man, is Zeus going to punch a shoggoth?". I can already see in such a scenario there being a lot of enjoyment players may get by going "Atlantis was Deep Ones" or the ilk.

                      100% not everyone's cup of tea. and yes, is really strips out a lot of the core "lovecraftyness" - but the Mythos is much more beyond one hateful mans stories now, and can be used, twisted, misinterpreted and remade to fit anyone's desires if they want to.

                      Also having them available as an understood, recognisable "pantheon" GM's can use as an "Evil Pantheon" has its strength. Every pantheon in the core books I would not feel comfortable representing their beliefs, Characters and followers with blanket statements such as "evil" as these are based on real world experiences and faiths. The mythos has no such baggage so it allows a lot of bending the other pantheons don't allow.

                      Also running a Victorian Scion game that becomes a Bloodborne riff half way through is something I would run. I'm not ashamed, Thor Kid punch squid head cool.


                      Find my Homebrew so far here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing
                      So far its Demon Merits, Vampire 1e to 2e ports and a Knowledge collection mechanic for the Ordo Dracul!

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                      • #41
                        I am curious as to their take on the idea of a campaign where only the Mythos is real.

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                        • #42
                          To me, they basically are going to make great villains.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by omenseer View Post
                            I am curious as to their take on the idea of a campaign where only the Mythos is real.
                            Mysteries of the World has a group of setting dials, one of which is “how many of the Pantheons are real?” This would basically be turning that one all the way down to one: the Mythos.


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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by omenseer View Post
                              I am curious as to their take on the idea of a campaign where only the Mythos is real.
                              I see it like a battle of paradigms, a bit like Mage. One pantheon (the Mythos) will be attempting to eradicate all others.

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                              • #45
                                It seems to me like the easiest way to cover both sides of the issue is playing with solo Mythos vs. Multi-pantheon games.

                                Playing a Mythos-only game fits heavily into the classic "Cosmic Horror" profile of an insignificant humanity temporarily adrift in a vast and unfeeling cosmos populated by alien creatures who are so far beyond us their collective reaction to human history is apathy, and where any struggle against these forces is a temporary reprieve from the forces of the Crawling Chaos that carries massive costs both physically and spiritually.

                                Or you could play a more pulpy multi-pantheon game where heroic Scions band together against a monstrous and alien threat, sort of like a pseudo-titanomachy. There's nothing wrong with Lovecraft-lite, and there's a sort of inherently cool appeal to a tableau of Poseidon fistfighting Dagon, or Nyarlathotep joining forces with Apep-cultists in his mad drive towards entropy, or maybe a Scion of the Teotl vowing to sacrifice the hearts of one hundred nightgaunts to Tezcatlipoca.

                                Or hell, maybe even a subversion of the entire formula. After all, the strife of divine parents and their children is a central theme of Scion, and (until the manuscript proves me wrong) there's nothing saying that the Mythos scions can't turn around and say "Hey, our parents are huge dicks, we probably shouldn't do what they say." I do think there's some fertile ground for a critique and recontextualization of Cosmic Horror through that lens - you could easily portray Mythos scions as lost children, looking to the other Pantheons of the world in guidance on what it means to be a proper deity, while others fall prey to the madness and nihilism of their condition and try to bring the Lovecraftian armageddon.

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