[Sc] How to run a Heist?

[wyrdhamster]

Wanted it to post to general Storypath subforum - but there is non.

How mechanically to run a Heist session? You know, story like Ocean's Eleven or other 'we will rob a bank/museum/other locked security' movie. Bonus points for pointing Origin tier powers to use on this.

( Yes, I prepare plot for my game about it. )

[FallenEco]

Apparently OPP are going to give us that kind information in Dragon. So, I find the timing amusing.

Heists feel like a series of challenges over multiple scenes to me; covering recon/research, planning, countermeasures and acquisition. What these look like can vary and those...scene roles(?) aren't necessarily in order and can repeat. I would also make frequent use of Complications, maybe turning unsolved into skill challenges later on. Don't deal with guard patrols when dealing with motion sensors, then you'll have to solve that problem later on.

[Kyman201]

For what we have so far:

Look up the rules for Complex Actions in Origin (Page 69), where the Challenge is achieved through a series of Milestones across a number of Intervals. So the Hacker needs to make a Technology roll in order to disable the security system, the Thief needs to roll Subterfuge to squeeze through the air ducts, while the Face is at the front desk making Persuasion rolls to keep the receptionist distracted. Every member will have a Milestone they need to achieve.

For a ticking clock scenario, put in a finite amount of Intervals. "Okay, the security is down, but now that the cameras are off you have 2 Intervals until security arrives. Work on that safe"

Also, a staple in Heist genres would be the context establishing flashbacks. Watch any given episode of Leverage (also watch Leverage, it's delightful) and by the end there's usually scenes flashing back to go "Actually we swapped uniforms". Scion actually has a mechanic for this: The Twists of Fate. If you use your Path for extra dice, you can spend Threshold successes to establish narrative details. So you can go "Oh since my character is a master thief, she's super prepared and would have brought tools for this laser security grid"

Edit: I am less familiar with how Trinity does Complex Actions but I wager they're pretty similar.

Edit 2: And this is a general game rule I run, with Scion I don't come up with like one precise solution in mind for the challenges. Just like... List the obstacles and challenges and let your players come up with ways to get around them. Let them take a shot at their silly ideas, because sometimes they work.

Now like, yes, you should probably keep some more likely things in mind (such as having the owner of the vault have the security code in their pocket because their memory is crap) but if your players don't pickpocket the code from the owner and instead go "Wait, I have the fire Purview, I'll just melt the door off its hinges" then it's probably for the best to go "Okay we're doing this now, spend the Legend"

[No One of Consequence]

While not dealing with Storypath mechanics or settings, Seth Skorkosky's How to Run a Heist video has a lot of good advice.

[wyrdhamster]

Where are those Heist rules we were promised for Dragon preview? I seem to missed them...

[wyrdhamster]

I do not see RULES for heists in Scion: Dragon preview - only story ideas in last chapter...

[glamourweaver]

I’d use Twists of Fate flexibly to cover retroactive reveals of what your character did off screen and how this seeming problem is according to plan, or at least prepared for.

[wyrdhamster]

Okay, so here is analysis for my Heist plot for Scion Origin game I run, based on the Seth Skorkowsky advises on running this genere.

The Artifact: Eye of Heavens orb – natural crystal that is rumoured to fall from the sky thousands years ago and opens ‘Gate to Gods’ of Atlantis.

Stage: Heist takes place in Louvre, Paris, France. In ‘Palace of Kings’ there is new exhibition called ‘Signs of Gods’ that is collection of old religious artifacts ( Relics ) collected by the museum. Putted on the display for one more week, because of 100^th anniversary of giving Eye of Heavens by mysterious donor. ( Arsène Lupin, Scion of Hermes, to be told – yes, book character. )

Fortress: I.E. Security measures. After watch dozens of TV episodes about heists on Blood & Treasure ( 2019 ) and Lupin (2021) series – I’m still not sure if I got a good measure of Fortress strengths. For now I have those measures:

• Tourists ( between 8 AM – 8 PM )
• Security guards
• CCTV cameras
• Glass Cabinets connected to laser sensors

I would be glad for any ideas how to strength the Fortress part in Louvre.

Dragon: Intimidating, special threat for the Heist. Obvious Dragon is Paris Police – in 7 minutes after alarm, police cars and officers are swarming greatest museum of France, surrounding it tightly. However, here is also a twist: there is Secret Dragon in Scion – the ACTUAL Dragon! Louvre is treated as Hoard for some mid-ancient Ladon, Greek Dragon charged firstly with protecting the golden apples of the Hesperides, that came here after Theoi Relics in collection. Our Scions can finally run from Police – but Ladon will hunt them down, if Police will not get them. ( Ladon NPC I prepare in this topc. )

So, what are your thoughts and advises on this plan? I remind you it’s planned for the Origin tier Scions challenge.

[wyrdhamster]

So I got question on implementing Heist RPG mechanics to Scion - mainly to Mateus Luz and glamourweaver. When doing all the research about heist genre adventures, there was a one cool looking piece of mechanics - Heist Tokens. Idea is that in Prep Phase, where characters are scouting locals or questioning NPCs on information - for each success rolled, players get Heist Tokens. Those Tokens then can be used in Operation Phase, i.e. proper heist, when complications rose. Player can declare usage of Heist Token and then character have a flashback how she prepared for the complication that shown right now. The problem I have in Scion with this - even at Origin tier - is that character are not unheard of to get dicepools of 9-10 dices. That would quickly generated 3 Heist Tokens by simply 'corridor testing' or 'camera looking'... Maybe make one Heist Token per 3 Succeses rolled by players?

[wyrdhamster]

Dragon: Intimidating, special threat for the Heist. Obvious Dragon is Paris Police – in 7 minutes after alarm, police cars and officers are swarming greatest museum of France, surrounding it tightly.

Thinking about real world implementation of time limit for 7 minutes - maybe give players countdown for 14 minutes ( twice game time ) or 21 minutes ( thrice game time ) to resolve the heist in game? So they would have heightened stress to commerce it, but take in account RPG medium and Internet nature of play now?

[Sakii]

Isn't demigod Goliath rules, what you use for heists?

[Ashnak]

Isn't demigod Goliath rules, what you use for heists?

You're right. I see that in the Demigod preview manuscript (p. 257 for others who have it). I'm going to try to convert wyrdhamster's Heist above:

Threat starts at 0. No security (nor the Dragon) is paying attention to the characters.
Size is the size of the museum. This usually is the (Scale of the museum - Scale of the Characters). Because the characters are Origin level, the Scale and Size are both 3.
Legend is the level of magic involved: because Ladon (a Nemesis-level Antagonist) owns this Hoard, we'll put the Legend rating at 3.

This means that when the characters start, they have 6 Milestones to complete, each of them at Difficulty 3. Each Milestone represents 3 minutes of action. If they fail any, they raise the Threat level, meaning more Milestones are necessary.

In play, the players announce what segment they are attempting to address. This can be done in any area of action, depending on what the characters are doing: Action-Adventure, Intrigue, or Procedural. For Intrigue, all segments have a negative Atmosphere equal to the (Threat level/2), and a Difficulty of (Size). Use Flashbacks for Procedural scenes, either researching the museum layout/casing the target, researching people, or crafting a Relic to assist in the Milestones.

The Rules as written for Goliaths say that each scene takes (Size) minutes, with a difficulty of (Scale). I would modify that slightly for a heist: An Action-Adventure scene should not take more than (Size*2) rounds, and the Defense of any non-trivial opponent in an Action-Adventure scene has a Defense of (Scale). The Segment fails (and Threat rises, adding a segment) if any opponent is not neutralized (could be Taken Out, could be something else) at the end of the (Size*2) rounds.

Extra successes on Procedural rolls in flashback can grant Enhancements to either Intrigue rolls (investigating people who will be in attendance, creating a stink bomb to clear a room) or to Action-Adventure rolls (Acquiring extra equipment needed). They can also be on-site rolls (e.g. hacking a security system). The difficulty for any of these rolls starts at Size.
Intrigue rolls can be used to reduce Threat (Shift Atmosphere with a difficulty of (Size+Threat+1)), or they can be used to make people do things (Encourage Behavior, Encourage Belief with a difficulty of Size). With a specific target (when Landon is alerted), Shift Attitude can also be used.

Intrigue and Procedural rolls only allow for (Size) rolls total. The third roll must succeed, or the Segment fails, increasing Threat and adding a Threat segment.

The museum heist looks like this:

French Museum
Threat: 0 (They don't know you're coming)
Legend: 3 (Curated by a Nemesis-level Antagonist)
Size: 3 (A city block)
Scale: 3 (A good security system)

6 Segments: Security guardsx2; CCTV; Laser sensors; Tourists; Escape Route [Threat segments: Police alerted; Police arrive; Ladon alerted; Ladon present; Ladon Draconic]
Defense: 3 (Security are Professional with armor), 5 (Ladon)
Initiative: 5 (security), 9 (Ladon)

[wyrdhamster]

Ashnak taking in account my players invented small EMP Generator to lock down all the electronics systems in nearby - I suspect using Goliath rules are useless in this example? As players simply 'turn off' all the electricity - so all non-magical security devices simply turn off for the duration of the heist. It sounds as systems overuse here, does it not?

[Ashnak]

Ashnak taking in account my players invented small EMP Generator to lock down all the electronics systems in nearby - I suspect using Goliath rules are useless in this example? As players simply 'turn off' all the electricity - so all non-magical security devices simply turn off for the duration of the heist. It sounds as systems overuse here, does it not?

If they did, that eliminates four of my segments; as each segment in Goliath rules represents a scene of play, if it took them 3-4 scenes to create the EMP generator, then they're still in scope. However, EMP generators are not subtle, and would probably add a Threat Segment or two. In my scenario, they'd be left with Tourists and Escape Route, as well as Ladon Alerted and Ladon Present, meaning they still have four Segments/Scenes to traverse.

You ask about systems overuse (which I interpret to mean adding systems complexity where complexity isn't needed): that's certainly possible. If you're happy with not using Goliath rules, then don't. But I think Sakii was correct to suggest them as a good starting point to defining a large challenge.

[wyrdhamster]

You ask about systems overuse (which I interpret to mean adding systems complexity where complexity isn't needed): that's certainly possible. If you're happy with not using Goliath rules, then don't. But I think Sakii was correct to suggest them as a good starting point to defining a large challenge.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I glad you pointed to Goliath rules. In relative quick time between now and Demigod Kickstarter ( what it was, half year only? ) I did not even seen there are rules like those, as Demigod was not my priority to accustom as Scion ST - as it's 'advanced' book in gameline. ( Did not get time to properly ready it, simple as that. ) So I'm glad you pointed me to new mechanics to get teeth in for in long time - but as players are a bit 'cheating the system' with EMP in my Heist, I will not use them this time. I still will have them in mind next time or generally, to use them in complex problems in Scion. Thanks on help with that!