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[2E] Non-combatants in Scion

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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic [2E] Non-combatants in Scion

    [2E] Non-combatants in Scion

    My Origin Tier players are complaining their non-combatant characters got easily beaten by enemies - Monsters and Professionals Archetypes. On band of 3 Origin-to-Heroes, only one character is combat specific ( mercenary chosen by Anubis ). On other hand, other characters are strictly academics Professor ( Scion of Odin, Sage Calling ) and modern Thief ( Scion of Hermes, Sage Trickster ). Professor is just easily killed on the one hit by enemies and do not know what to do in combats, beside running for his life. IF he survives first hit. I look for some ideas how to engage non-combatant players more.

    I want to mark that players to this date did not use any armors on them - maybe last events point them to use those. ( Professor player is pointing on contrast 'Where did you seen history professors in combat armors?' )
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-01-2021, 12:01 PM.

  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    If the base value is 4, they could spend 3 on a roll. 3e is the hard cap of how much a Bond can boost a roll.

    There are other benefits to Bonds, but they're largely in the Intrigue system (basically, someone trying to get you to go against your Bonds has a harder time of it). Those benefits only last as long as there's successes in the pool.

    The duration of a Bond is an episode, which is by default longer than a single normal game session (that's an act), though an episode might be finished in a longer gaming session. As long as you don't exhaust the Bond before the end of the episode, it remains. You only need scenes to refresh it, or attempt to reform it before the next episode. As long as the PCs have bonded in some fashion over the last episode (how determines the type of Bond and all that) they qualify to start a new Bond and it starts full.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Lets say your group all have level 4 Attitudes towards each other. They form a Bond of camaraderie at the start of the episode. (...) If they drain the pool, the Bond ends and they'd have to spend time reestablishing it in more depth to regain the benefits.
    Okay, so Bond is possible pool, you need to refresh by the roleplaying scene each game session, yes? At start of session pool is always 0, then Bond scene comes, pool goes to minimum attitude ( in example 4 ) - and then players can spend Bond on this game session to give various +1e or +2e across scenes, up to pool of 4 in general sum?

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    All Bonds have the same mechanics, the types are just guides/suggestions for what rolls can benefit, how to handle the rolls to refill their pools, and Complications involved.

    The maximum success pool of a Bond is the lowest Attitude level between characters (so 1-5 based on how the characters feel about each other). The most a Bond can boost one action is a 3 Enhancement from the pool (if it has that many in it).

    Lets say your group all have level 4 Attitudes towards each other. They form a Bond of camaraderie at the start of the episode. That gives them a pool of 4 successes. This can be spent as 1e on four rolls, 2e on two rolls, 2e on one roll and 1e on two other rolls, etc. But never 4e on one roll. As long as the team levels at least one success in the pool, they can roll to refill the pool back to max after an appropriate scene. If they drain the pool, the Bond ends and they'd have to spend time reestablishing it in more depth to regain the benefits.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Camaraderie is probably the best to start with unless the players want deeper connections between their characters, but it's plenty for giving the group a pool of Enhancements to help them get past a rough spot.
    Camaraderie bonus can go from +1 up to +5, yes? Or is it limited by being Camaraderie itself?

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    One of the things about the Feint stunt is that you can basically keep cycling it around. Main combatant PC injures the target and Feints for their ally. Their ally now has a much easier time hitting the target, dealing some damage if the target lacks armor or not if the target has armor, and Feints back to the main combatant, who is now hitting even better and can critical and possibly feint again. Rinse. Repeat.

    That's before getting into non-attack actions the non-main combatants might take to create enhancements or complications in the fight.

    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
    I think he was mentioning bonds, like friendship bonds. Check Origin page 79.
    Yep.

    Camaraderie is probably the best to start with unless the players want deeper connections between their characters, but it's plenty for giving the group a pool of Enhancements to help them get past a rough spot.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    So maybe non-combatants can use Feint Stunt themselves, even if not making Injury to pass Defense on enemy?
    The feint stunt will transfer the success you invest on to another character attacking the target, but they need to hit the target. Success in the action is always needed before you can spend on stunts.

    You mean here Fate Bonding system?
    I think he was mentioning bonds, like friendship bonds. Check Origin page 79.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    I think Heavy Arms is 100% right, use the rules as written, they are good.

    I gave a few options on how to make it a bit more difficult for your players, go around trying to make them move away from the objective combat to something more cinematic. This kind of difficulty will help you on that, the players already know the advantages of helping each other, now maybe they will start using it even with the more restrict rule, and may have to explore other options as suggested.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    like the Feint stunt which is the stunt for giving an ally Enhancements to attack the same target.
    So maybe non-combatants can use Feint Stunt themselves, even if not making Injury to pass Defense on enemy?

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    And at some point your players might figure out that they can use the Bond system to boost each other easily (if too limited for every combat round).
    You mean here Fate Bonding system?

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I think you should really try to make use of the system as-is before you house rule stuff.

    Remember that your primary combatant, if not scoring enough successes for a Critical stunt, will still want to spend them on something... like the Feint stunt which is the stunt for giving an ally Enhancements to attack the same target. And at some point your players might figure out that they can use the Bond system to boost each other easily (if too limited for every combat round).

    There's a lot of ways for the PCs to get synergy and cooperation to get things to go in their favor. It really doesn't need help mechanically.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    So making 'cheap shots' to disorient enemy - still should pass the enemies Defense? In my example - if Manticore has Defense 4, then even non-combatants need to pass 4 before generating any Enhancements for others?

    More thinking about 'Cheap Shots' Stunt idea - maybe the non-combatant shooter need to achieveDefense/2 of enemy ( round down )? For monster like Manticore ( basic Defense 4 ) it would be there Difficulty 2 to achieve but for typical soldier ( with basic Defense 2 ) it would be Difficulty 1 to achieve for non-combatant. What do you think Mateus Luz? Does it sound more balanced?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-15-2021, 05:30 AM.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    So making 'cheap shots' to disorient enemy - still should pass the enemies Defense? In my example - if Manticore has Defense 4, then even non-combatants need to pass 4 before generating any Enhancments for others?
    Yes, if the idea is to use cheap shots. The problem is, your manticore has defense 4 and no armor, if you split it in defense 2 and Soft Armor 2 the difficult to hurt it will be the same but to help will be lower. For example, you get 3 successes, if defense is 4 you can’t hit and so can’t help, but if it’s 2-2 you hit and give 1 success to your friend or cause a complication 1 to the manticore.

    You could also try to distract it with the shot noises, maybe taunt it with insults, or using some torchers to visually distract. In this case you would not need to beat the full defense, as you are not trying to hit it, than the difficulty could be lower (1, for example) and have a complication 1 to make the manticore get distracted but not jump to attack you (Grant payed the complication in the Tyrannosaur scene in Jurassic Park, Malcolm didn’t). You don’t need to plan this before, you can discuss with the player and improvise the difficulty and complication at the moment.

    Honestly, it’s hard to bring some of that ideas during the game, even more if the players focus on killing the target. But if it gets particularly hard to hit, they may start having fun with it. One thing Storypath makes different from storyteller (and most of the traditional RPGs) is you give the general action, roll the dice and with the result you describe what you got, while traditionally we describe the action, roll the dice and the GM describe the results, if you keep this in mind the games change a lot and become really narrative (what can be absolutely fun).

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    So making 'cheap shots' to disorient enemy - still should pass the enemies Defense? In my example - if Manticore has Defense 4, then even non-combatants need to pass 4 before generating any Enhancments for others?

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Yes. A +3 often is not very common because 3 successes spent on that every round is not common.

    Just notice that the character must do an action to be able to help, and the help must make sense. For example, singing (unless you are a bard) will not help the friends to hit their attack, it needs to make sense in game. It means you will have a certain difficulty to beat, and maybe complications, before can use your extra successes to help others.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    My player point out that non-combatant character was giving +3 Enhancement for normal combatant ones with his 'cheap shots'. Should it work like that? Non-combatants adding Enhancements for proper combatants?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-14-2021, 01:34 PM.

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