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Doppelganger Limitations

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  • Hark
    started a topic Doppelganger Limitations

    Doppelganger Limitations

    So, creating a character I kinda realized how crazy Doppelganger really is. For context I'm creating a Scion of Sun Wukong who happens to still be a high school student. I personally don't plan to abuse this to do anything to crazy unless it is for some gag stuff without any real consequence.

    Initially, I saw it as a way to safely skip classes for the character, and generally get up to mischief. Then I stopped to consider long term needs. For Scion it isn't unreasonable to expect characters to do some world traveling. I thought maybe doppelganger might work for that until I remembered the time limit. That then reminded me of the fact that a clone has all of the same stats as a the character including knacks, so a clone also has the Doppelganger knack. Which raises the question, could a clone reset the time limit on doppelganger by making a clone of itself? This further raises the question of all sorts of shenanigans. How many doppelgangers could one have, could the number really grow exponentially as each clone starts making more clones? Setting aside the numbers game for a moment there are other narrative issues. Leaving a clone behind to cover a characters daily life seems readily prone to being attacked a some point. For a Scion, avoiding violence seems almost unavoidable. So how much could a clone accomplish in a fight? Obviously, run away, and serve as a distraction, but could a clone block an opponent from passing by getting in close range and opposing disengage attempts? Could a clone make fake attacks and put an opponent on the defensive? It seems reasonable that a clone could push a button, but then could a clone push a button that fires a missile? If so that would be an attack, so could a clone make real attacks? Do any combat limitations even matter is the clone is fighting against trivial opponents? Basically all of this is the kinda stuff Sun Wukong would do, but there is game balance to consider, so that comes more an issue.

    Could I leave a clone behind to live my character's mundane life while off adventuring?
    Could a clone make a new clone using the doppelganger knack, which it obviously possesses?
    Could a clone effectively reset its own time limit by making a new clone to take its place?
    Could I take the time with my clones to make an exponentially growing army of clones?
    Could a clone participate in combat at all? Could it initiate combat? What if someone else initiated combat?
    Could clone participate in a chase scene?
    Could a clone block an enemy from passing by opposing disengage actions?
    Could a clone make fake attacks as a distraction?
    Could a clone make real attacks?
    Could a clone instead act as a leader commanding followers or other NPCs in combat?
    Do combat restriction even matter if the clone is up against trivial opponents?

    Feel free to discuss doppelganger and any other limitations and issues that would arise from it.

  • Thiagocord
    replied
    The way i found to balance this is the making the knacks active limit global, since a immortal knack costs 2 spaces , it limit pretty much how much clones you can make with doppel, since the knacks dont make clear every clone has his own knack active limit, it works out, a 4 dots trickster can only summon 2 doppels.

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  • TheStray7
    replied
    Originally posted by Hark View Post
    So, how do you think a Doppelganger performs in a fight against a trivial opponent on combat? A large group of trivial opponents?

    Basically, do doppelgangers follow the rule that it sucks to be trivial and basically ignore the usual restrictions on the ability when used against trivial opponents?

    I think that if this came up in my games, I'd treat using the Doppelganger as a Follower with an effective dot rating equal to the character's Trickster Calling dots. That means that anything you could do with a Follower in a fight, you could do with your Doppelganger -- meaning that directing them to fight while also doing actions yourself requires a mixed action on your part. The higher your Trickster Calling, the more Tags you can assign to your Doppelganger (or 'gangers plural) with the limitation that a) you can only give the Doppelganger Knacks you know and b) the doppelganger only have the Taken Out condition instead of the Bruised and Maimed Condition Followers usually have. If you give them abilities that work better against trivial opponents, then they still work better against trivial opponent.

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  • Hark
    replied
    So, how do you think a Doppelganger performs in a fight against a trivial opponent on combat? A large group of trivial opponents?

    Basically, do doppelgangers follow the rule that it sucks to be trivial and basically ignore the usual restrictions on the ability when used against trivial opponents?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheStray7
    replied
    In a lot of superhero media, summoning multiple clones to dogpile a group of bad guys is pretty standard fare -- but that's also usually the only trick they have. Naruto is one of the few superhero media types who has other powers in addition to his clone-creation trick.

    Honestly, I'd be fine with allowing multiple duplicates...as long as they were built using the Followers rules. Followers already covers having a group of lackeys at your beck and call fairly well while not creating an insane nightmare for combat adjudication.

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  • Aristarkos
    replied
    Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
    So looked it over and I don't think its appropriate for Hero tier to be able to do mass cloning and such. The wording says that each use of the knack can create a clone. Consequently, even if the ruling were that clones could make clones we're talking linear clone growth unless your SG rules that creating a new clone doesn't eliminate the old ones. Which doesn't feel right to me, one because at any power tier the ability to create nigh on infinite duplicates of yourself is a game breaker power, and two the numbers just don't seem right for Hero tier.

    Now a fun fact I did see in my reading. One can interpret the RAW for the ability as allowing the double to fight. It doesn't say your double can't be in a fight, just that it turns to dust if attacked. There is some evidence for this being against RAI as it also says that the double is to be sent off to handle a social or investigative task. That said I think many SGs are cool with giving you enough leeway to have your double participate in combat, particularly for things like distractions, decoys, and feints and the like.
    Yes, I see nothing in the description saying that the Doppelganger cannot participate in an attack, just that they crumble to dust if attacked. The player in question that I mentioned had his clone support him not just with feints and distractions but also by making ranged attacks at a distance.

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  • nalak42
    replied
    So looked it over and I don't think its appropriate for Hero tier to be able to do mass cloning and such. The wording says that each use of the knack can create a clone. Consequently, even if the ruling were that clones could make clones we're talking linear clone growth unless your SG rules that creating a new clone doesn't eliminate the old ones. Which doesn't feel right to me, one because at any power tier the ability to create nigh on infinite duplicates of yourself is a game breaker power, and two the numbers just don't seem right for Hero tier.

    Now a fun fact I did see in my reading. One can interpret the RAW for the ability as allowing the double to fight. It doesn't say your double can't be in a fight, just that it turns to dust if attacked. There is some evidence for this being against RAI as it also says that the double is to be sent off to handle a social or investigative task. That said I think many SGs are cool with giving you enough leeway to have your double participate in combat, particularly for things like distractions, decoys, and feints and the like.

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  • Aristarkos
    replied
    Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
    Keep in mind the infinite clones thing could get defeated by a single scion with the warrior knacks Army of One and They're Everywhere (of i remember the names right)
    You are quite right. What I would do for future games is probably just remove the need for a skill roll and have the player spend 1 Momentum for it instead. That way they can keep creating clones until Momentum runs out.

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  • Maitrecorbo
    replied
    Keep in mind the infinite clones thing could get defeated by a single scion with the warrior knacks Army of One and They're Everywhere (of i remember the names right)

    Leave a comment:


  • Hark
    replied
    Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post

    Me too. If this were allowed (clones creating clones ad infinitum) every single combat scene (and possibly every single scene for that matter) would be an extreme grudge and I would ban that Knack after a single session unless it was made into some kind of one-shot ability costing Legend or something.

    I have a player who has been really good at using his Doppelganger Knack, maximizing it at every turn and really squeezing tons of utility from it across an entire campaign, and even he did not think of letting clones create clones because it would be ridiculous.
    I'm more expressing my general distaste for Naruto and his fighting style. I actually don't have problems with huge numbers of clones so long as it's narratively appropriate and fun for everyone involved.

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  • Aristarkos
    replied
    Originally posted by Hark View Post

    See, I actually hate the mass combat clone thing. I'm only concerned about combat with clones so far as dealing with a clone being attacked. Clones are much more interesting as tools of mischief.
    Me too. If this were allowed (clones creating clones ad infinitum) every single combat scene (and possibly every single scene for that matter) would be an extreme grudge and I would ban that Knack after a single session unless it was made into some kind of one-shot ability costing Legend or something.

    I have a player who has been really good at using his Doppelganger Knack, maximizing it at every turn and really squeezing tons of utility from it across an entire campaign, and even he did not think of letting clones create clones because it would be ridiculous.

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  • Hark
    replied
    Originally posted by TheStray7 View Post
    Shadow clone jutsu!

    See, I actually hate the mass combat clone thing. I'm only concerned about combat with clones so far as dealing with a clone being attacked. Clones are much more interesting as tools of mischief.

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  • TheStray7
    replied
    Shadow clone jutsu!

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  • Florin
    replied
    They can't benefit from Teamwork. You could maybe get away with doing 100 projects individually, but you won't be able to put all of them on one project. You would then probably hit duration issues at that point.

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  • notMidas
    replied
    Okay - so a shared legend pool is a good start to mitigate these issues.

    But let's assume the trickster is not being attacked. They all have the heroic lover 'Not a Fighter' knack. Or they just aren't on the battlefield.

    Say you decide to brute force research with your 100 doppelgangers. They each have 8 dice - not great, but not bad. But you get to roll 100 times - each of them is a separate character, not a follower and they are each working individually. With that many rolls, one of them is likely to hit 8 successes or more. Lets assign 10 of them to collate the results together so it's not just a chaos of opinions. The sage of the party, even with their specialties and bonuses stacked up is only rolling once, because they have only one character, not 100.

    Or maybe we send 50 to assist with research while the other 50 are free to do anything else the player wants to achieve. The sage has to dedicate all their time to just one cause.

    There are very few scenarios that having more characters of the same level as everyone else isn't better than having one character.

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