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[Dragon] Making Wyrm antagonists

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
    She can kill them almost instantly if in Dragon form. Dragon form gain scale, in that case a lot is scale....
    Hmm... So lowering Inheritance to like 5 would make it only Scale +3 => not something that kills instantly as I read rules correctly, yes?

    Rules seems to imply Heir get's ONLY +1 Scale, not '+1 Scale per two dots of Inheritance'... Draconic Form

    • The Heir gains +1 Scale on all actions, which doesn’t stack with any Scale benefits from Knacks or other sources; if two sources would grant Scale, use the highest bonus among them.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-15-2021, 02:42 AM.


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    • #17
      I may be wrong, but I think the rules for Lesser Wyrms increase this Scale lift. I don’t have the manuscript on me now, unfortunately.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
        I may be wrong, but I think the rules for Lesser Wyrms increase this Scale lift. I don’t have the manuscript on me now, unfortunately.
        Checked quickly on Manuscript on 'Lesser Wyrms' term...

        P. 8:
        • Lesser Wyrm: An Heir who has an Inheritance rating of 5 or more. Lesser Wyrms are Tier 2 characters and embody more of their draconic side than their human side.

        P. 249:
        • A Lesser Wyrm is more comfortable in her draconic form than in her human one. She is no longer limited to transforming into her draconic form once per scene, and can switch back and forth as many times as she likes. At Inheritance 9, the Heir fully transforms into her draconic form. She can now imbue an Inheritance to take on her human form in reverse of what she could do before. While in a human form, she cannot activate any of her Transformation Knacks that would show her draconic side, though she can use her Knacks of Scale. When using a Knack of Scale, failure to buy off the True Draconic Nature Complication results in ending the human form transformation.

        • Feats of Scale are bigger and more showy for Lesser Wyrms than other Heirs. When a Lesser Wyrm performs a Feat of Scale, she can spend a Momentum to gain an additional +1 Scale for the action regardless of if the action falls in line with her Deed Name. This does stack with the Deed Name Scale bonus though. But, doing so increases her cumulative Complication for True Draconic Nature by +1.


        So going with base +1 Scale for Draconic Form of any Heir, and +1 Scale for Lesser Wyrms and +1 Scale from Deed Name => Max Lesser Wyrms can get +3 Scale. Or so is my rules reading now...
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-16-2021, 07:08 AM.


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        • #19
          Suddenly they seam to fit as final boss in a heroes campaign. I was sure there was something to make them gain a lot of scale easily, but I am probably wrong.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
            Suddenly they seam to fit as final boss in a heroes campaign. I was sure there was something to make them gain a lot of scale easily, but I am probably wrong.
            Maybe some random powers? One of Draconic Knacks or Spells maybe adds next Scale?

            Either way - with Scale +3 on attacks, Jörmungandr Greater Wyrm( Reincarnation ) does not seems as such overkill, yes? PCs on Legend 1 should - bearly - survive fight with her? Or is she still too powerfull on Inheritance 10, maybe?


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            • #21
              Hard to tell. I think a group of high legend Heroes could defeat as described. Not sure... Honestly I never tried to play with dragons so far, so I don’t know how powerful they really can be. I haven’t even built one to try...


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              • #22
                Correctly me if i'm wrong - Heroes with Legend 1-5 have Scale +1 for some things in combat, yes?

                Dragon even with Scale +3 ( that you may go only by invoking Deed Name ) has only Scale +2 over Heroes on Legend 1.

                And Scale +2 is getting +4 Enhancment for the Dragon on the attacks - so it would 'only' mean that on normal attack pools, it gets extra Injury, from Critical (4s) Stunt.

                So if Lesser Wyrms normally doing 1-2 Injury per attack - with it's Scale +2 over Heroes, it will only get to 2-3 Injuries. Enough to 'hit hard' Legend 1 characters - but not instant kill in first attack. Am I right on those approximations?
                Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-17-2021, 02:23 AM.


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                • #23
                  Heroes can raise their scale by ½ legend round up, and they are limited to legend 4, but they are limited to one action per legend spent, what is pretty limiting. Also this increase in scale is just related to the title, so some of the heroes may have some issue to raise that much, limited to no more than +1 scale.

                  So a band of Heroes facing a Scale 3 dragon will have a hard time to keep all characters alive for more than a few rounds, when they get out of legend and can’t stand a chance against the overwhelming scale.

                  But yes, your approximations are right.


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                  • #24
                    The problem with that is Heirs/Lesser Wyrms have a similar ability that can give them 1/2 their Inheritance in Scale under some circumstances, (knack dependant, I think). Given the general rule about replacing Scale, rather than adding it.
                    Plus the statement about being tier 2 is a typo, lesser Wyrms are tier 3 and greater ones are tier 4.

                    And don't forget that Lesser Wyrms get a cost reduction on their Spells


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                    • #25
                      5 Heroes on Legend 1 easily mooped my Jörmungandr Greater Wyrm without large problems. ( Only one PC got somehow beaten by 3 Injury levels. ) I forgot on Scale difference on two first attacks, but one of players generated like +4 Enhancement for all the Scions ( Leader Calling etc. ). Even with Scale difference later on, they just beated it by numbers alone. ( Previous Reptile Infiltrators bodyguards where more or less enemies on turn or two. )

                      Clearly, Jörmungandr Wyrm should have regenerative abilities - as just 5 Heroes on one Wyrm just will defeat it easily.

                      Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                      Plus the statement about being tier 2 is a typo, lesser Wyrms are tier 3 and greater ones are tier 4.
                      So if Scions with Legend 1 are only Tier 1 - that means Greater Wyrms have Tier 4 - it means it should have +/- 6 Enhancement to things from Scale?
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-04-2021, 01:25 AM.


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                      • #26
                        Advice I got from Scion Discord on the Demigod level antagonists that should be real series bosses.
                        0. HEROES HAVE SCALE 0 ( unless powers )!!!!
                        1. Give it Passive Scale 4 all the time. Just. All the time, due to Size. Scale 4 will give like 8 Enhancement that breaks the Enhancement Cap. The Shockwave would hit most of the party with each attack. Scale 4 also will give a Defense Boost (also make sure your Antagonists have static defense)
                        2. Give it multiple Segments, each one with its own health bar and maybe keying certain powers to each Segment.
                        3. Remember that at that level, count 7 and up on the dice as successes.
                        4. Use 1 Tension to declare that the antagonist didn't DIE die, and got away to lick their wounds.
                        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-04-2021, 01:48 PM.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                          5 Heroes on Legend 1 easily mooped my Jörmungandr Greater Wyrm without large problems. ( Only one PC got somehow beaten by 3 Injury levels. ) I forgot on Scale difference on two first attacks, but one of players generated like +4 Enhancement for all the Scions ( Leader Calling etc. ). Even with Scale difference later on, they just beated it by numbers alone. ( Previous Reptile Infiltrators bodyguards where more or less enemies on turn or two. )

                          Clearly, Jörmungandr Wyrm should have regenerative abilities - as just 5 Heroes on one Wyrm just will defeat it easily.



                          So if Scions with Legend 1 are only Tier 1 - that means Greater Wyrms have Tier 4 - it means it should have +/- 6 Enhancement to things from Scale?
                          Tiers don't actually interact with the scale system if I recall correctly. What they do is change the threshold for success; the 'target number'.
                          Your Heroes need to roll 8's or higher for Successes.
                          Your Greater Wyrm only needs to roll 7's. That is straight up 10% more succeses from any given dicepool.


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                          • #28
                            FallenEco is right, you don’t compare tier to define scale or anything similar, scale is scale and tier is tier.

                            But the tier has a connection to scale that is Legend/Inheritance, that can provide a good amount of scale with easy in the case of godlike creatures.

                            So far we don’t have god rules or anything similar, but taking Demigods and a lesser Wyrms as reference, greater wyrms are probably capable of maintain a high scale in a permanent fashion with little to no effort, if not by size and psysical might, by magic.

                            How much scale? Well, scale 6 is kind of the up limit in Demigods, so I guess they will keep that way in God, and so to Greater Wyrms. And scale 6 means overwhelming to anything under scale 4… so, any hero and most of the demigods would have issues to deal with directly.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                              So far we don’t have god rules or anything similar, but taking Demigods and a lesser Wyrms as reference, greater wyrms are probably capable of maintain a high scale in a permanent fashion with little to no effort, if not by size and psysical might, by magic.

                              How much scale? Well, scale 6 is kind of the up limit in Demigods, so I guess they will keep that way in God, and so to Greater Wyrms. And scale 6 means overwhelming to anything under scale 4… so, any hero and most of the demigods would have issues to deal with directly.
                              If we go with Passive Scale ( i.e. Scale on anything ) as Demigod level Antagonist, I would rather see this as Passive Scale 4 level - enough to squash mere Heroes easily, but giving fighting chances on Demigods characters. ( As they can rose to Scales up to 3 with good powers. ) Passive Scale 6 would be true Gods area - so as 'Inheritance 11' Dragons, i.e. Dragon 'Gods'/Patrons of the book. But it's only my gut feeling, not supported by mechanical tests in game.

                              Remember that Dragons also gats Scale +1 from Deed Name and various Draconic Knacks - then Passive Scale would be 4, with added +2 Scale with a well-chosen action (to working Scale 6 on particular action ).
                              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-04-2021, 01:50 PM.


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                              • #30
                                Yes and no… Yes for the level you want to put the be adversaries of your characters, no to the fact they are bellow gods. The true dragons are absolutely powerful, they are match to gods, just take a look in who they kill or fight, Thor dies by the venon of one, another took an entire pantheon to defeat (with no causalities) and the weak ones protect stuff from gods.


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