[Sc 2E] Questions on Scale

[wyrdhamster]

So I planing to move forward my Origin game to Hero tier - and more I read material for the later, I see more phrasing on idea of Scale. I understand more or less basics - that Scale says 'I'm better than you in this or that action area' - but want to understand it more deeply, as how much it's mechanics in Scion 2E. So couple of questions:

1. How much better is +1 Scale for the action? Like, if character has '+1 Scale in combat actions' ( often in weapons Relics ), how would it reflect in damages it do to it's enemies? Would it reflect in Armor pricing, after hitting character with Succeses to bypass Defence of it?

[Mateus Luz]

Scale is a big thing in Storypath system, it means a lot. Having scale over means you have a large advantage over the adversary, most often it can be deal narratively, for example when you get a gun and shoot a vehicle it causes little to no damage, or when you have a rocket launcher and hit a person it just kill, but the heroes are not common people, they are protagonists, and so it’s always dramatic.

When you have scale above the target of an attack, you gain +2 enhancements per scale above in the attack, you can buy the Cause Injury stunt once more per scale above besides the critical stunt.
When you are on the other side, and the target has scale above you, their defense is increased by 2 (I suggest to add the +2 as soft armor, but RAW it’s defense).

Lets say our human hero is fighting giant. Both are pretty good fighters, rolling 10 dice to attack and 4 to defense, both have armor, with soft armor tag, and both have a sword that grant 1e, but the giant is, well, gigantic, and is one scale above due to his massive size.

Hero attacks: roll 10 dice, gets 3 success +1e (total 4)
Giant defend: rolls 4 dice, gets 1 success, defense +1, +2 from scale (total 4)
Hero hit, but can’t hurt the giant as didn’t pass the armor.

Giant attacks: Roll 10: dice, gets 3 success +1e +2 from scale (total 6)
Hero defends: rolls 4 dice, gets 1 success, defense +1 (total 2)
Giant hit and have 4 extra success, use 2 to buy Cause injury twice and 2 to complicate the next Hero action (hero is prone, need to get up or can’t attack the giant properly)

Next round the hero is prone and bruised, and the giant is perfectly fine, and both had the same results, except for scale.

[Aristarkos]

Scale is a big thing in Storypath system, it means a lot. Having scale over means you have a large advantage over the adversary, most often it can be deal narratively, for example when you get a gun and shoot a vehicle it causes little to no damage, or when you have a rocket launcher and hit a person it just kill, but the heroes are not common people, they are protagonists, and so it’s always dramatic.

When you have scale above the target of an attack, you gain +2 enhancements per scale above in the attack, you can buy the Cause Injury stunt once more per scale above besides the critical stunt.
When you are on the other side, and the target has scale above you, their defense is increased by 2 (I suggest to add the +2 as soft armor, but RAW it’s defense).

Lets say our human hero is fighting giant. Both are pretty good fighters, rolling 10 dice to attack and 4 to defense, both have armor, with soft armor tag, and both have a sword that grant 1e, but the giant is, well, gigantic, and is one scale above due to his massive size.

Hero attacks: roll 10 dice, gets 3 success +1e (total 4)
Giant defend: rolls 4 dice, gets 1 success, defense +1, +2 from scale (total 4)
Hero hit, but can’t hurt the giant as didn’t pass the armor.

Giant attacks: Roll 10: dice, gets 3 success +1e +2 from scale (total 6)
Hero defends: rolls 4 dice, gets 1 success, defense +1 (total 2)
Giant hit and have 4 extra success, use 2 to buy Cause injury twice and 2 to complicate the next Hero action (hero is prone, need to get up or can’t attack the giant properly)

Next round the hero is prone and bruised, and the giant is perfectly fine, and both had the same results, except for scale.

Would the Giant get double Scale due to its sword? I would think that being so big and strong the Giant probably wouldn't carry a normal-sized sword for human fighters but a really big one, and would then such a sword count as having Scale? Or is the fact that the giant is probably going to use giant-sized weaponry accounted for in its Scale already?

Another example would be the same two fighters but they are having a gunfight instead. The human Hero has a regular pistol. Meanwhile, the giant can probably fire a small cannon as if it were a pistol. The giant probably wouldn't get Scale from being big and strong in this case but surely his absolutely massive firearm would more than enough to warrant Scale over a puny pistol?

[Mateus Luz]

Would the Giant get double Scale due to its sword? I would think that being so big and strong the Giant probably wouldn't carry a normal-sized sword for human fighters but a really big one, and would then such a sword count as having Scale? Or is the fact that the giant is probably going to use giant-sized weaponry accounted for in its Scale already?

That is a good question, the scale in the giant sword is already a factor of the giant scale.
In general, scale does not stack, so being super fast and super tough won’t make you double scale above. If the giant sword was particularly powerful it would be one scale above the giant, but it would mean the sword should be scale 2, not scale 1 above.

Another example would be the same two fighters but they are having a gunfight instead. The human Hero has a regular pistol. Meanwhile, the giant can probably fire a small cannon as if it were a pistol. The giant probably wouldn't get Scale from being big and strong in this case but surely his absolutely massive firearm would more than enough to warrant Scale over a puny pistol?

If the giant was using a regular gun he would not gain any scale in the attack. But it’s not the case, his scale would be from the power of his weapon on the attack, but his size would still impact in the hero capacity of causing damage in the giant.

A giant using a human scale weapon would be no different than a person using a toy in a fight, it will hurt more than a kid using the toy, but I don’t know how much more, for the giant, I would guess the big hand solid game the small sword would be as fatal as the big hand holding nothing, and so gain scale.

Scion is about telling a story, so scale will enter when needed, if it is about regular people use no scale, if it’s awesome use scale. Don’t worry too much about details, honestly, the idea is not a simulation, it’s more about general feeling, heroes can gain scale by their legend with no other explanation, basically their sword can now cut a car in half just because that how they are awesome. Same may apply on reverse to giants using swords...

[TheStray7]

Hero attacks: roll 10 dice, gets 3 success +1e (total 4)
Giant defend: rolls 4 dice, gets 1 success, defense +1, +2 from scale (total 4)
Hero hit, but can’t hurt the giant as didn’t pass the armor.

No, Defensive Scale is half the Enhancement bonus, added directly to Defense. It doesn't add to defense rolls. That means the Giant has 1 success added to their Defense of 3 (natural + armor + Scale). It works out to 4, so the Hero does get at least one Damage Condition in, which could affect the giant's roll.

[Mateus Luz]

Yes, there is the line that says “For static values, apply half the value of the Dramatic Enhancement”, but it is weird.

To be fair, Scion treats scale as always in a competition, one action against another action, and not one action against a reaction (rolling defence, for example), so the competitor with higher scale gains +2e per scale. But in Trinity Core it says “When taking actions against a higher Scale entity that does not take actions, the difference inflicts a +2 Difficulty instead. For example a human (size Scale 1) lifting a boulder (size Scale 2), would suffer a +2 Difficulty to accomplish the task.” (Page 74)

[wyrdhamster]

To be fair, Scion treats scale as always in a competition, one action against another action, and not one action against a reaction (rolling defence, for example), so the competitor with higher scale gains +2e per scale. But in Trinity Core it says “When taking actions against a higher Scale entity that does not take actions, the difference inflicts a +2 Difficulty instead. For example a human (size Scale 1) lifting a boulder (size Scale 2), would suffer a +2 Difficulty to accomplish the task.” (Page 74)

I do not understand the difference here - could you explain it in detail? Or maybe on 2-3 examples more?

[Mateus Luz]

What I mean is, when you read Scion description for scale it talks about granting enhancements to the higher scale, but nothing about trying to act against a higher scale target that is just there, like lifting a car, attacking a very resistant target or outrunning a bullet. The examples are more similar to a giant and a human engaging in a grapple, not a giant attacking a human or a human attacking a giant, it’s about competing and not exactly going against directly.

Scion also has this line that says half of the enhancements when dealing with an static value, and that is the issue here, because Defense is a static value that you can increase, but not botch or anything similar. That’s when TheStray7 example enters, because if the idea was to lift a big rock, the difficulty would be increased by 1 per scale above, same for defense and similar difficulties. That makes sense but has a unbalance, you gain 2 against something bellow and lose 1 when against something above, not that it must be balanced, but there is no explanation to that other than “For static values, apply half the value of the Dramatic Enhancement” (it’s in Origin, not sure the page).

Trinity has a more solid example, it says you gain 2e when going against one scale bellow, and +2 dif when going against something one scale above, and that’s it, no doubt. Trinity and Scion are not 100% compatible just as written, there are a few changes on the system, including the fact that humans are scale 0 in Scion and 1 in Trinity, so you could say Scion works different, but I don’t think it’s the case (personal opinion).

[Joboo]

Wait, I thought Defense was rolled and not static.

[Florin]

PCs roll Defense. Antagonists do not.

[wyrdhamster]

PCs roll Defense. Antagonists do not.

I still just simple that PCs have Statis Defense - but CAN roll, if character is doing Dodge action. MUCH simpler to run combats then - and players still can roll if the want.

[wyrdhamster]

2. How is basic Scale for mortal humans? Is it 'Scale 0' on default? Especially against damage in combat.

[Mateus Luz]

2. How is basic Scale for mortal humans? Is it 'Scale 0' on default? Especially against damage in combat.

In Scion all humans are Scale 0. It’s a good way to reference the scales, a a scale 3 is 3 scales above human, practical. What matter exactly is not the numbers but the difference between scales, so a scale 2 next to an scale 3 will feel as “small” as an scale 0 next to an scale 1.

Notice that scale 0 doesn’t mean it worth 0, it is a comparison method, basically logarithmic, there are lower scales than 0, a cat probably would be scale -1, and a mouse scale -2, and so on.

[wyrdhamster]

3. So if humans are all Scale 0, then Frag Grenade ( from Nexus's Divine Armory ) with Scale 2 damage - is doing 4 Damage on hit to normal humans? Cause each Scale +1 gives +2e to the related thing, yes? So Scale 2 Damage would do 2*(+2e) =+4e in Damage?

[Mateus Luz]

Honestly, I would not make it scale 2, unless we are talking about magical or over powered grenades.

The count is, it gains +4 (+2 per scale) and can cause 3 injuries + critical. To cause multiple injuries you need to buy multiple times the cause injury stunt, what can be free for people with no armor.