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  • #76
    No worries about the net problems, I totally understand.

    Originally posted by Havoc View Post
    Can you recommend any sources in PIE stuff? And any other you might have concerning the more primordial side of mythology (preferably sites or online sources, you see, I'm brazilian, so I can't really buy foreign books without bankrupting myself).
    PIE is getting into an area where, again, I know enough to know I don't know enough to talk much about it. There is one source which I was sent to by a Professor of mine, but as you mentioned, I have no idea how accessible it would be for you. There might be a scanned version of it somewhere in the depths of the internet, but I don't know of any. It's Jaan Puhvel'S book 'Comparative Mythology.'

    There are a lot of people talking PIE online, and as far as I have been able to tell it is just like reading about the Celts online. Shaped, twisted, and hammered into the shape which fits best within the perspective of the person talking about them. Honestly, even academic PIE stuff is like that, it's all reconstructions, and wild guesswork, but a lot of the online stuff is badly sourced, misunderstands concepts they are building off of, a big mess.

    Primordial Mythology stuff I'm not big into. I don't do the Anthropology side of Myth, at least, I'm not trained in it. I'd say look at Joseph Campbell's stuff. That will be everywhere, especially The Hero With A Thousand Faces. I don't jive well with Campbell, but, that's just my personal opinion, people smarter than myself both agree and disagree with Campbell in different areas. For your idea of a primeval Pantheon stuff, look at The Way of the Animal Powers. I don't know how legitimate it is really, but it's Campbell. Maybe it will be useful. You can probably find copies of his work all over the place on line, it's crazy popular.

    Originally posted by Havoc View Post
    Also, messing with greek genealogies is becoming one of my hobbies! I've recently been very much into researching the possible successor of Zeus, and everything points to that Zagreus fella, which became Dionysus, who I very much doubt would be too much interested in waging war against Zeus.
    There's... that other one. Athena's brother. I can't remember his name, I think Gotham By Night talked about him once. I don't think we even have his name left, just a vague allusion to him in a single document. Essentially, there are two 'clauses' of the Fate. A) The Son of Zeus will have Metis for a mother, and B) Will be a greater thunderer than Zeus. Now, in my mind, the best candidate for being The Son of Zeus is no one named in mythology. The best Son of Zeus is a Player Character Scion of Zeus. Getting around the Metis clause is tricky, but she's inside of Zeus, somewhere. Might be a part of Zeus now. Prophecy can be fiddled with on that aspect, non-literal prophecies and all of that.

    Essentially, if someone is Fated to be The Son of Zeus, that's a whole story cycle for you. It's one I really want to run one day, like a Ragnarok Cycle. First bit is Prometheus would be all over that Scion like a dirty shirt. Prometheus is a physical embodiment of Foresight, so he has planned for all of this, possibly since he played the trick on the Theoi with the sacrifices. So, Prometheus will surely be there, showing up, and incredibly gently guiding that little Scion. Not tricking them, you don't need to trick a modern Scion to see the Theoi as problematic.

    Next bit is the Pattern of Secession. When Cronus overthrew Ouranos, he was freed from imprisonment within the caves by his mother so he could castrate his father. In turn, Cronus would imprison his siblings, the Cyclopses (I call them the Primordial Cyclopses to divide them from other ones) and The Hundred Handed Ones. Zeus rebelled, broke the Hundred Handed Ones, and the Primordial Cyclopses out, and they helped him overthrow Cronus along with some treasonous Titans (Hecate, Nix, Selene, Helios, Eos, presumably Prometheus and Epimetheus), and imprisoned the Titans, and later The Giants.

    So, following the pattern, The Son of Zeus will free the Giants and the Titans from Tartarus, who will then ally with the Son of Zeus, who will round up the rest of his generation (other Scions) along with some treasonous Theoi (plus probably Hecate, she turned against Cronus when she noticed which way the wind was blowing. She'll probably turn on Zeus when she sees the same) and overthrow Zeus. (And then imprison the Theoi in Tartarus, which will hurt Gaia for the mistreatment of his family, and The Son of Zeus will, just like his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather before him, be fated to be overthrown by his own son)

    Originally posted by Havoc View Post
    He doesn't seem very interested in waging a war.
    Oh, there was... that one time. The War in India. I am really shaky on that one, but I'm fairly sure Dionysus started a small inter Pantheon War in India. There was one, I just can't exactly remember what role Dionysus played. Fairly important IIRC.

    Originally posted by Havoc View Post
    By the way, there's an idea bouncing in my head, what with Pan being from an ancient pantheon and such, about more feral gods. I mean gods from very primal societies, deities "worshipped" in their own way by the animals of the world, like Wolf or Bull. Maybe very, very ancient Titans that failed to appear in any human culture, because they aren't human. I didn't even begin to think about this mechanically speaking, I'm trying to figure out the whole cosmology thing first, but I think it'd be fun to represent primitive deities of sorts that don't really operate in the same frequency the Scions are accostumed to. Sure you might convince Shango not to smash your face after you've done a transgression, but how would you negotiate with the Tiger, the ultimate hunter?
    Originally posted by Havoc View Post
    With respect to the whole Pan being from an older pantheon, it made me think of deities from more primal times. I mean, we humans only have been around for what, sixty-or-so millenia? The Earth is far, far older than that. I was thinking of Animal deities. Not gods and goddesses of animals, but Animal Gods, the platonic ideal for which every animal aspire to be, like Wolf and Horse. It's just an idea bouncing in my head for now, I'm still figuring out the whole cosmology business first (and these Titanic shenanigans will only come into play later, but I want to do a buildup starting with echoes in Demigod).
    Hm, if you want to find 'platonic ideal' sort of animal 'Deities,' I do have some actual suggestions. Of course, just what is an 'ideal' is shaped by human's conception of these animals, but there are some groups I could point you towards.

    The Wyandot have an Animal Council for their Pantheon. They are not all fierce, and primal or anything though. Better organized than the Tuatha, really. More stable political organization in the very least. They are, however, what the Wyandot would perceive as the idea of The Wolf or The Eagle, etc. Ashanti Mythology has the stories of Anansi playing tricks on the other animals, that might be of interest to you for this sort of topic.

    Then there are the actual animal Titans. Fenrir, Jormungand, Namazu, and Illuyanka being the ones who leap to mind.

    Originally posted by Havoc View Post
    If you can, I'd be very thankful with sources concerning "titans" from other cultures.
    I would be more than happy to, but what sort of material are you looking for?

    Originally posted by Havoc View Post
    That thing with true appearance, and something I've noticed in RAW, is the level of notoriety of Scions. Like, at first I thought of something more underground, but your power stat is literally "Legend", people KNOW about all the monster killing stuff? Do the government snuffle that? I'm not really sure which way I'm leaning on this matter.
    I normally rule it that people know. Legend 2 is small, maybe you're a little local hero, nothing quite overtly supernatural. By Legend 4, you are probably on international news. By Demigod, a Social Scion who felt like it could declare themselves King of America and get away with it. Initially, governments will panic. Well, some. I don't think India would. Again, I don't know too much about Hinduism past some colonial period stuff, but a Deva Scion running around in India would have an absolute ton of public support. The States might try to cover it up or control Scions, but that would... be very hard. Especially up against the Mental and Social Scions. Even at Hero, they're scary for States. Canada would probably just get mildly concerned about it, but if it was in the public eye (which Scions will be) it would probably be a public safety situation which a smart Scion can easily turn to their side. The EU wouldn't be able to react quickly enough, except France who just ignores the rules when they're inconvenient. But, the French have a dead Pantheon, so if Scions started cropping up, it probably wouldn't be too much of an issue for them.

    States might try for the cover up, but it wouldn't last long. And, on top of that, different States would react differently. A Bogovi Scion in Russia would be an utter mess due to just like every front of that situation being a mess. A Tuatha Scion in Ireland should concern the Irish, but it probably wouldn't. By the time a Scion is Legend 3, covering them up would be impossible. You could kill them, but you gotta hope you're not killing the kid of a vindictive, or family oriented Pantheon. Kill Telipinu's Scion and your entire State will go full famine mode, nothing growing, birth rate for humans and animals would go to zero, everyone would be lethargic, and starving to death. Kill Marduk's kid and your capital city would suddenly have a case of a very pissed off Marduk shouting about how you're all ants, and he's going to kill your king even if you explain you don't have one. Kill Huitz's kid and you're going to have a terrible day...

    Really, actually, a State killing a Scion would be a great opening for a story. It would cause an absolute shitshow, and would be a great way to just have a snap-to return of the Divine. Everything's normal, and then a black ops team kills a woman who had a burning spear, a great white hound with red ears, and was making everyone who she talked to fall in love with her. Next morning an irate Lugh is in your capital building demanding a honor price with his Spear of Victory in his hand, entirely capable of fighting the entirety of your armed forces and winning with minimal effort. The Morgana would be hanging around in the back of the room. And that's with the Tuatha. Kill Poseidon's kid, and Oklahoma is suddenly under water.

    Hmm... I'm going to use that.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Watcher View Post
      No worries about the net problems, I totally understand.
      PIE is getting into an area where, again, I know enough to know I don't know enough to talk much about it. There is one source which I was sent to by a Professor of mine, but as you mentioned, I have no idea how accessible it would be for you. There might be a scanned version of it somewhere in the depths of the internet, but I don't know of any. It's Jaan Puhvel'S book 'Comparative Mythology.'

      There are a lot of people talking PIE online, and as far as I have been able to tell it is just like reading about the Celts online. Shaped, twisted, and hammered into the shape which fits best within the perspective of the person talking about them. Honestly, even academic PIE stuff is like that, it's all reconstructions, and wild guesswork, but a lot of the online stuff is badly sourced, misunderstands concepts they are building off of, a big mess.

      Primordial Mythology stuff I'm not big into. I don't do the Anthropology side of Myth, at least, I'm not trained in it. I'd say look at Joseph Campbell's stuff. That will be everywhere, especially The Hero With A Thousand Faces. I don't jive well with Campbell, but, that's just my personal opinion, people smarter than myself both agree and disagree with Campbell in different areas. For your idea of a primeval Pantheon stuff, look at The Way of the Animal Powers. I don't know how legitimate it is really, but it's Campbell. Maybe it will be useful. You can probably find copies of his work all over the place on line, it's crazy popular.
      I just might look into that, thanks! I've already heard about Campbell's stuff, haven't got around to reading it though. And about the primordial pantheon thingies, I might simplify that a bit in my games. Not only I don't wanna have to get a degree to run a game, but also most of my players don't even care too much about mythology per se. They like it when it's presented to them, but overall indifferent, so I don't want to fucks too much on this too.
      Originally posted by Watcher View Post
      The best Son of Zeus is a Player Character Scion of Zeus.
      This. I really wanted to run the story and trajectory of a Thunderer, but as amazing as it sounds, no player got interested in being a son or daughter of Zeus, and I'm not sure if I want to put an allied NPC there just to do this. Either it's fun, or it takes too much of the limelight away from the player characters. It might, however, be a preferable solution to "Dionysus suddenly decided he wants to press his claim on Mt. Olympus". (The thing about the war in India, I have to look deeper into that, this is about the fifth time I hear it mentioned)
      Originally posted by Watcher View Post
      The Wyandot have an Animal Council for their Pantheon. They are not all fierce, and primal or anything though. Better organized than the Tuatha, really. More stable political organization in the very least. They are, however, what the Wyandot would perceive as the idea of The Wolf or The Eagle, etc. Ashanti Mythology has the stories of Anansi playing tricks on the other animals, that might be of interest to you for this sort of topic.
      I find this very interesting as a basis or precedence for what I want to do. In retrospect, I'm pretty sure this "Primordial-Animal-Deity" thing came about when I was reading on Werewolf: the Forsaken, the whole Father Wolf debacle. But I don't want to base something on ficctional religions.
      And I've read about Anansi, only superficially though. I think Neil Gaiman has a book about it, it's called Anansi Boys, I stumbled on it while searching for the english name for Stardust. Very interesting story, and on the spirit of what I was thinking of doing.
      Originally posted by Watcher View Post
      I would be more than happy to, but what sort of material are you looking for?
      Things about the Aztec Titans, or the closest they have to them. The Tuatha, Theoi, and Kami you already covered, and I already have my own conception of the Aesir and Netjer Titans, but I just can't see the "Teotl" Titans, what with the whole world destroying stuff. Also, the Orisha Titans. I've brushed about a lot with the Orisha on my daily life, as Candomblé is a very popular brazilian religion based on them, but I never delved too deeply on them. Their creation myth already begins with "There was a sky and the sea, and then the Gods thought they needed land [...]", no mention of Primordials of any kind. Also, the Tuatha don't have them too, their story is even somewhat Abrahamic in it's start, what with Cessair and such.
      Originally posted by Watcher View Post
      Really, actually, a State killing a Scion would be a great opening for a story. It would cause an absolute shitshow, and would be a great way to just have a snap-to return of the Divine. Everything's normal, and then a black ops team kills a woman who had a burning spear, a great white hound with red ears, and was making everyone who she talked to fall in love with her. Next morning an irate Lugh is in your capital building demanding a honor price with his Spear of Victory in his hand, entirely capable of fighting the entirety of your armed forces and winning with minimal effort. The Morgana would be hanging around in the back of the room. And that's with the Tuatha. Kill Poseidon's kid, and Oklahoma is suddenly under water.
      I think I want to do this now.
      But really, this is a good way to show the Scions how much they matter. After all, that is one of the weird things to wrap your head around in Scion: the Gods don't really care too much about humans, so you figure they won't care too much about you, but you're not human anymore, you're part of the family. And most of my players (maybe this is Percy Jackson's fault) almost always start the game thinking there is some sort of whole society of Scions behind the scenes and stuff, but I like to think there are about, what, about 20 Scions running around the world, so the death of one REALLY is something of concern to the gods. (Even the distant ones of the Anunna)

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Havoc View Post
        Things about the Aztec Titans, or the closest they have to them. The Tuatha, Theoi, and Kami you already covered, and I already have my own conception of the Aesir and Netjer Titans, but I just can't see the "Teotl" Titans, what with the whole world destroying stuff. Also, the Orisha Titans. I've brushed about a lot with the Orisha on my daily life, as Candomblé is a very popular brazilian religion based on them, but I never delved too deeply on them. Their creation myth already begins with "There was a sky and the sea, and then the Gods thought they needed land [...]", no mention of Primordials of any kind. Also, the Tuatha don't have them too, their story is even somewhat Abrahamic in it's start, what with Cessair and such.
        Orisha Titans is something I unfortunately know nothing about, but I can talk about Teotl Titans. This is all drawn from conversation with my friend Griffinguy24, he knows Central and South American Mythology way better than I do. But, we put together a list. Ometeotl, Itzpapalotl, Mixcotal, Coyolzauhqui, Coatlicue, Cipactli, Chantico, Malinalxochitl, and my favorite, Itzlacoliuhqui. If you are looking to divide them up into Titans and Primordials as Scion 2e is looking to do, I couldn't make many suggestions except Ometeotl and Cipactli are good Promordials. I just don't know enough about the others to give any advice. I do have a good book I can give you access to for the Aztects actually. I just have to nip out for a few hours, but when I'm back I can PM it to yourself.

        The start of the Tuatha myths is literally a localized rip of the Book of Genesis, goes on for ages. Then you get the actual invasions of Ireland coming through. If you wanted to get some Tuatha Primordials, there... hm. Lir, and Danu I would both make Primordials. Fintan mac Bochra I would also list alongside them. Cessair, Partholon, and Nemed are also all options, just because they are dead shouldn't discount them from being a Primordial in the context of the Tuatha. If being dead discounts someone, both their Titan and God lists are gutted.

        I would be tempted to make Mil Espaine a Primordial of some sort. Banba, Fodla, Eriu, along with Mac Cuill, Mac Cecht, and Mac Greine are also strong options for Primordial.

        Originally posted by Havoc View Post
        But really, this is a good way to show the Scions how much they matter. After all, that is one of the weird things to wrap your head around in Scion: the Gods don't really care too much about humans, so you figure they won't care too much about you, but you're not human anymore, you're part of the family. And most of my players (maybe this is Percy Jackson's fault) almost always start the game thinking there is some sort of whole society of Scions behind the scenes and stuff, but I like to think there are about, what, about 20 Scions running around the world, so the death of one REALLY is something of concern to the gods. (Even the distant ones of the Anunna)
        Being family is big, and the other big aspect of it is that, even if a Deity doesn't care about their Scions, killing one of their Scions is an insult. Kill a Theoi kid, and you've acted against the Gods probably. Act against the kids of one of the Three Kings and you've directly worked against the will of the Gods. While the Anunna for example may not care a ton about their kids personally, they would be aghast if mortals dared to challenge them by slaying one of their children. It would be a direct insult to them.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Watcher View Post
          I do have a good book I can give you access to for the Aztects actually. I just have to nip out for a few hours, but when I'm back I can PM it to yourself.
          Please do!

          I think Lir and Danu are the best suited Primordials for the Tuatha. The others, while very important, are more akin to my conception of Titan.

          In any case, thanks a lot! This has been of great help!

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Watcher View Post
            Orisha Titans is something I unfortunately know nothing about
            Originally posted by Havoc View Post
            Also, the Orisha Titans. I've brushed about a lot with the Orisha on my daily life, as Candomblé is a very popular brazilian religion based on them, but I never delved too deeply on them. Their creation myth already begins with "There was a sky and the sea, and then the Gods thought they needed land [...]", no mention of Primordials of any kind. Also, the Tuatha don't have them too, their story is even somewhat Abrahamic in it's start, what with Cessair and such.
            Orisha Titans as such, if I may chime in, are a difficult issue. I think it was mentioned that 2E was not gonna have any at all, which does kinda make sense, but is not without alternative.

            Basically, Yoruba cosmology as we know it doesn't really leave space for any Primordial but the High God Olorun/Olodumare, the "Owner of Heaven". What his standing before the arrival of Abrahamic influence actually was is hard to say, but today he is actually the only "true" God of the Yoruba - the Orisha themselves could be compared to the Persian Yazata or Buddhist Bodhisattvas in their role as god-like spiritual beings below the "true" God. Olorun is definitely a creator in as far as he created the first Orisha, and ordered them to make the world. He also participates in the creation of new humans, blowing life into the forms fashioned by Obatala. Otherwise, he is depicted as a mostly withdrawn deity who is not prayed to, and only acts in myths when challenged - a perfect Primordial, really. But it is interesting at least that there are beings who think they can challenge him, so let's have a look at them as well.

            Interestingly, both of them think they can stand up to Olorun because they believe to be as old or older than he is, showing that they, too, arose at the beginning of time. The first of these is the Earth Goddess. She seems to be mostly called by her Fon/Dahomey name of Nana Buruku. You may sometimes find her named Onile as well, but some scholars seem to think that is more properly only the name of a certain ritual implement. In any case, the Earth Goddess is an interesting case. While she has more cult presence than most figures we would consider Titans and Primordials, those are mostly mystery cults and secret societies - the Earth Goddess is a deity of justice, who is closely connected to the exclusive and secretive Ogboni Society, which administrates such judicial duties in most Yoruba communities. In fact, the whole reasoning for why crimes must be punished is because they soil the Earth. And as an old, motherly goddess, the Earth Goddess is also connected to Yoruba witches, which are also very much concerned with justice (I previously talked about them here: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...592#post999592 ).
            The most famous myth about the Earth Goddess is the one about her contendings with Olorun (there are different versions of the myth, of course, I'll just cite the one I know best): Olorun and the Earth Goddess go hunting together, but they only catch a single rat. They then begin argueing over who should keep the rat, each claiming the right of seniority. In the end, Olorun angrily lets the Earth Goddess keep the rat, but he withholds rain from her in return. Soon parched, the Earth Goddess begs forgiveness, and sends the rat to Olorun carried by a vulture (or the goddess Oshun in the shape of a vulture). Thereupon, Olorun lets the rains return, and it rains so mightily that the feathers on the vulture's head fall out from it.
            Thus, I'd say the Earth Goddess would make a very interesting Primordial or Titan, as long as one keeps in mind that she's still inferior to Olorun.

            The second, more difficult case of contending with Olorun would be the sea deity Olokun, whose sometimes depicted as male, and sometimes as female. Olokun has a very lively cult and many myths, and is most often, like most Orisha, called a child of Yemoja, but there are some accounts of Olokun being in fact the primordial sea on which the Earth was created, thus a being almost as old as Olorun. Olokun is a destructive deity which needed to be bound in golden chains to keep them from constantly flooding the earth - and the reason for this wrath is, again, Olokun's haughty assumption that they are as old and powerful as Olorun himself. Instead of going hunting, however, Olokun challenged Olorun to a weaving contest, but Olorun just sent his lowly messenger, the chamaeleon. Soon, Olokun was utterly devastated, for this simple creature, not even the master they challenged himself, could with its skin best even the most wonderful of Olokun's creations. So this deity as well was humbled.
            The apparent age of Olokun and the necessity of binding them seem to make a strong case for a Titan, but in light of the very strong cult of the deity, and their many more positive appearances in myth, I would personally prefer them as a deity.

            Then, there are some other figures like Shopona/Babalu Aye, Yemoja, Osanyin, and so on, who are all either very old, or vaguely antagonistic, or both, but none of them reach the level of the figures named above, and all of them have large cults. You could make them Titans, GBN did, for a fact, but I for my part wouldn't. The only other one I can think of is the rainbow serpent Oshumare, which is very little worshipped, and sometimes described as an ancient, ever rejuvenating being hidden deep in the forest. A little outside this whole scheme is another group then, who for their otherness and inevitability might be Titans after all, the 201 Aganju, "the Warriors", demons opposite the godly Orisha, who personify such concepts as death ("Iku"), pestilence ("Arun"), and so on. The only one of them who goes mentioned in a myth or two of his one is Iku, the hammer-wielding spirit of death, however.

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