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  • Originally posted by vonpenguin View Post
    That would depend on the legend wouldn't it? Excalibur broke when it was used against Lancelot for example.
    Hope it doesn't depend on the legend. Yeah it can break of course but not destroyed

    Originally posted by vonpenguin View Post
    something completely against the nature of the relic for example, maybe dipping a Demeter gifted fertility boon in the river Styx, using a weapon granted by a guardian deity to kill toddlers, that sort of thing
    This could work but it would have to work for every Relic. but even so, it's like an easy way to destroy it... :/

    Comment


    • I personally think it should take mythic effort to break a Relic.

      Consider Moana.

      Where Maui's hook broke after being hit by Te Ka's attacks too many times


      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
        I personally think it should take mythic effort to break a Relic.

        Consider Moana.

        Where Maui's hook broke after being hit by Te Ka's attacks too many times
        Too many times is not quite a mythic effort, though :/

        Broken can be repaired, Destroyed is not the same thing. It can be broken, but not destroyed.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post

          Too many times is not quite a mythic effort, though :/

          Broken can be repaired, Destroyed is not the same thing. It can be broken, but not destroyed.
          Being hit by a God's angry attack, however, probably IS.


          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post

            Hope it doesn't depend on the legend. Yeah it can break of course but not destroyed



            This could work but it would have to work for every Relic. but even so, it's like an easy way to destroy it... :/
            I meant that it depends on if it fits the idea behind the stories. Clearly what's true for one should be true for all or at least most if they occupy the same setting. And sure, but in a setting where a low end mythical craftsman can remake a book from ashes that muddies the waters a bit on if destroyed rather than just smashed to uselessness is even theoretically possible.

            That's easy? Seems like it would require research on the exact magic involved, the effort of taking it from a supernaturally powered entity, then the effort of doing X. Probably easy for something a god made as an afterthought for a friends brat but not for a god's favorite weapon.

            Comment


            • Kyman201 : Gods are sensitive entities. If any angrey attack can destroy a Relic... it would happen very often. Or rather, why it did not happen yet if this is possible?
              vonpenguin : It's obviously less easy than having mighty angry strength but the fact that there is a way to destroy doesn't feel right to me. But yeah, if there were a way, yours is more accurate for me

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
                Kyman201 : Gods are sensitive entities. If any angry attack can destroy a Relic... it would happen very often. Or rather, why it did not happen yet if this is possible?
                I don't think anybody is saying that it should be EASY to destroy a Relic. At my table, something like that would be a storyline in and of itself, would never be done without player permission, and I wouldn't do it PERMANENTLY. Usually getting a Relic repaired or replaced would be folded into the ongoing adventure.


                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                  I don't think anybody is saying that it should be EASY to destroy a Relic. At my table, something like that would be a storyline in and of itself, would never be done without player permission, and I wouldn't do it PERMANENTLY. Usually getting a Relic repaired or replaced would be folded into the ongoing adventure.

                  That's the thing. if you create a rule (that is destroying Relics) and disable it whenever you feel like it or activate it just because it involves a storyline, it makes the rule really complicated to apply and players might not like it (yours may but mine won't).

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post


                    That's the thing. if you create a rule (that is destroying Relics) and disable it whenever you feel like it or activate it just because it involves a storyline, it makes the rule really complicated to apply and players might not like it (yours may but mine won't).
                    I think you're overly complicating things. It's not a rule change as much as it's simply playing with storylines. Here's the simple breakdown.
                    1. DISCUSS EVERYTHING WITH YOUR PLAYERS. This cannot be overstated. If you're going to do something completely game-changing, make sure you have player approval. Damaging or breaking a Relic, a Relic being stolen, permadeath, make sure your players are on board. Seriously, this shit isn't hard.
                    2. If you're going to do something that big, then don't do it on a whim. Make it part of the story. Make a plot line out of it.
                    3. Also, this is important... If the Big Thing is permanent (A Relic sword shattered beyond recovery) then for the love of Isis recompensate your player. If a sword is destroyed by being thrown into the maw of Apep, then after some questing, the player should probably find a new Relic, perhaps one that suits a change in outlook.
                      1. For example: The failure of losing the sword causes the player to change one of their Callings from Warrior to Sage, for they find out that knowledge can change the world in ways that even a weapon cannot. Thus they journey and do some favors for Thoth, and receive one of his Scrolls that grant them the secrets of the cosmos, letting them use their Heku for different Purviews (Perhaps Earth, Fertility, and Water. The Scroll can hold the secrets of the Nile's power)


                    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                      I think you're overly complicating things. It's not a rule change as much as it's simply playing with storylines. Here's the simple breakdown.
                      1. DISCUSS EVERYTHING WITH YOUR PLAYERS. This cannot be overstated. If you're going to do something completely game-changing, make sure you have player approval. Damaging or breaking a Relic, a Relic being stolen, permadeath, make sure your players are on board. Seriously, this shit isn't hard.
                      2. If you're going to do something that big, then don't do it on a whim. Make it part of the story. Make a plot line out of it.
                      3. Also, this is important... If the Big Thing is permanent (A Relic sword shattered beyond recovery) then for the love of Isis recompensate your player. If a sword is destroyed by being thrown into the maw of Apep, then after some questing, the player should probably find a new Relic, perhaps one that suits a change in outlook.
                        1. For example: The failure of losing the sword causes the player to change one of their Callings from Warrior to Sage, for they find out that knowledge can change the world in ways that even a weapon cannot. Thus they journey and do some favors for Thoth, and receive one of his Scrolls that grant them the secrets of the cosmos, letting them use their Heku for different Purviews (Perhaps Earth, Fertility, and Water. The Scroll can hold the secrets of the Nile's power)

                      I guess that people tend to agree with you and I see your point. What doesn't work for me is a one-time thing. By the way, I could be fine with what happens after a Relic is destroyed. I only disagree on the fact that it could be and your example doesn't quite explain how the Scion got the sword destroyed. You have to be more specific, like, telling me how you applied this in your games.

                      I'm not saying it is wrong, I'm just saying that it's not a good idea, considering its a changing state. Imagine any TV series changing a "rule"/"situation"/whatever-you-like-to-call-it as important as this one. Imagine Game of Thrones suddenly decides that Dragonglass doesn't kill white walkers anymore because it's a one-time thing... once you establish a rule as a fact, even a storyline, it has to be able to be reproduced without failing. If a player wants to reproduce the same path to break another Relic, he has to be able to or he would feel like it's "cheating".

                      Of course it has to be approved, never said otherwise. I mean, it's totally fine by me if your players are happy with your storyline involving destroying Relics.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
                        You have to be more specific, like, telling me how you applied this in your games.
                        This is all hypothetical, I haven't actually DESTROYED any Relics. A lot of these are adapted from some debates that came and went in the Exalted forums around the time Evocations from artifacts were discussed.

                        Some people felt uncertain about them not for reasons I could understand ("I can't see a daiklave as being part of my character's story" "My character's a martial artist and fights unarmed" I mean those excuses were THERE but in addition to this one) but because they didn't want to invest Experience points in something tied to a weapon that could be destroyed or stolen via ST fiat.

                        To which I got on a soapbox and declared that any ST who destroys a player artifact permanently without player permission is a jackass who has absolutely no right running games.

                        But about Relics... Yes, Relics should be tough. And in 99.9% of any games I run, I'm probably going to run that Relics are effectively indestructible. If you get say, a Relic Irish Muscle Car built by Brigid herself, featuring leather seats from sacred deer hide and metal mined from the outskirts of Tir na nOg, then you can expect that car to be VERY tough. Smash through other cars, plow through fences, this is a divine relic, stronger than mortal materials that could resist it.

                        But sometimes "An item of legend destroyed and reforged anew" is a story that interests people. Maybe the Scion who owns that car has access to the Forge purview, and wants to repair their damaged Relic Car as part of their growing legend to Demigodhood.

                        Now, you're right in that it'd be weird to say that the car's smashed through other cars without even scuffing the paint but NOW it changes. So I wouldn't do that. Getting shot at by police wouldn't work.

                        But you know what might? Dragonfire. The wrathful blast of a Fire Giant. A spear wielded by another Scion forged from the fang of a sea monster. It'd take something of mythic proportions to damage an item created by divine power.

                        So, let's take that hypothetical... While driving the rest of the Band away from an angry dragon that they stole a treasure from, the dragon's flame and talons tear open the roof of the car and even rip out part of the engine. The Hero, whose player has agreed to this storyline and is onboard and gave full permission, takes the car into a garage and then perhaps calls in their mom to get supplies.

                        What follows would be a montage of forging the new frame, repairing parts of the engine, and Brigid herself would look at her Scion after repairing the car and say "This is Good."

                        This might be used OoC to perhaps justify changing the story of the Relic. Maybe it swaps out an associated Purview because of the difference in the construction mindset. Maybe the player says "Look I know this gives me access to the War purview... But it fits the character more if I swap it out for say, Guardian because she's not much of a fighter, but WOULD be focused on protecting the people in her car", to which I'd say "Makes perfect sense, alright, swap War for Guardian."

                        If a player wants to reproduce the same path to break another Relic, he has to be able to or he would feel like it's "cheating".
                        Going to my hypothetical... If my players manage to take a Relic from an enemy and set it up so that it gets bathed in dragonfire because "Well Dragonfire wrecked the crap out of Dot's car. Let's try to use it to destroy the Ring!" then I'd give them bonus points for creativity and remembering details.
                        Last edited by Kyman201; 04-20-2017, 04:23 PM.


                        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                          Going to my hypothetical... If my players manage to take a Relic from an enemy and set it up so that it gets bathed in dragonfire because "Well Dragonfire wrecked the crap out of Dot's car. Let's try to use it to destroy the Ring!" then I'd give them bonus points for creativity and remembering details.
                          ​If the fires of Mt. Doom can destroy Sauron's One Ring, then they should be able to destroy one of Voldemort's Horcruxes.


                          "A free society is one in which it is safe to be unpopular."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mangle77 View Post
                            ​If the fires of Mt. Doom can destroy Sauron's One Ring, then they should be able to destroy one of Voldemort's Horcruxes.
                            I'd have to do an analysis on how powerful the fires of Mount Doom are compared to FiendFyre, and idly wonder if Mount Doom is a magical volcano or if it's simply the only volcano in the map of Middle Earth, would a regular volcano have destroyed the One Ring? Did Sauron use his dark powers to harness Mount Doom, thus making the crater of it a magical workspace that allowed him to forge the One Ring? Because if it's a magic volcano then yes it could probably destroy Voldemort's Horcruxes.

                            Granted, given Sauron's very nature, I'm sure that if Sauron himself got hold of one of the Horcruxes he could crush it in his grip and destroy the soul within.


                            Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                              I'd have to do an analysis on how powerful the fires of Mount Doom are compared to FiendFyre, and idly wonder if Mount Doom is a magical volcano or if it's simply the only volcano in the map of Middle Earth, would a regular volcano have destroyed the One Ring? Did Sauron use his dark powers to harness Mount Doom, thus making the crater of it a magical workspace that allowed him to forge the One Ring? Because if it's a magic volcano then yes it could probably destroy Voldemort's Horcruxes.

                              Granted, given Sauron's very nature, I'm sure that if Sauron himself got hold of one of the Horcruxes he could crush it in his grip and destroy the soul within.
                              ​Well, one has to remember that the One Ring being specifically forged in Mount Doom was a big part of this. It might just as well be that Mount Doom was the only place that could destroy the One Ring because that's where it was made. And this is relevant because it has a certain mythic resonance of its own. The idea that a relic can only be destroyed in certain ways, perhaps ways specific to that relic, is an interesting one. Maybe the fire of ten dragons would be just as hot and magical as Mount Doom, but still not do the job. Even though he prefers it when people solve their problems through kindness and purity and so on and so forth, Gandalf probably would've destroyed the One Ring if he could, so we kind of have to figure that all the power of an Istar wasn't enough to do the job.

                              ​So what does that mean for relics in the game? Well, you could say that some are a bigger deal than others, like the One Ring compared to, say, Narsil, which was a magic sword but was still shattered when Elendil and Gil-galad fought Sauron. That might not really be fair to people who don't get a 'bigger deal' relic, though, so it might be better to go with the assumption that relics in general are only destroyed by something that is both mythic in importance and at a good narrative juncture to do so. The muscle car probably won't get more than a few dings from most adventures even if there's powerful stuff involved, but if you're driving desperately to escape a rampaging dragon that was just unleashed from its ancient prison then the car might end up totaled - a terrible loss representing the failure to contain the dragon, but you live to fight another day and maybe to repair the car, assuming you can. Success with a complication, but on a mythic scale.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

                                But about Relics... Yes, Relics should be tough. And in 99.9% of any games I run, I'm probably going to run that Relics are effectively indestructible.
                                Agree on that point

                                Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                                If you get say, a Relic Irish Muscle Car built by Brigid herself, featuring leather seats from sacred deer hide and metal mined from the outskirts of Tir na nOg, then you can expect that car to be VERY tough. Smash through other cars, plow through fences, this is a divine relic, stronger than mortal materials that could resist it.
                                [...]
                                But you know what might? Dragonfire. The wrathful blast of a Fire Giant. A spear wielded by another Scion forged from the fang of a sea monster. It'd take something of mythic proportions to damage an item created by divine power.
                                So, you're saying only physical power can destroy a Relic... that's discrimination!! More seriously, I don't think it's a bad idea, but again, can it be done again by another character? If a NPC wants to do the same thing to a PC, will it be possible? Or another PC. And the thing is, if you discuss this kind of matter at your table, it is not a "surprise" anymore.

                                Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                                [...] I'd give them bonus points for creativity and remembering details
                                Go for the remembering details but bonus points? Seems not enough as a reward... and see? That's the thing: it can be destroyed but imagination is only rewarded by bonus points. I would not bother doing so... I mean, it's risky for... not much.


                                Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                                But sometimes "An item of legend destroyed and reforged anew" is a story that interests people. Maybe the Scion who owns that car has access to the Forge purview, and wants to repair their damaged Relic Car as part of their growing legend to Demigodhood.

                                Now, you're right in that it'd be weird to say that the car's smashed through other cars without even scuffing the paint but NOW it changes. So I wouldn't do that. Getting shot at by police wouldn't work.


                                So, let's take that hypothetical... While driving the rest of the Band away from an angry dragon that they stole a treasure from, the dragon's flame and talons tear open the roof of the car and even rip out part of the engine. The Hero, whose player has agreed to this storyline and is onboard and gave full permission, takes the car into a garage and then perhaps calls in their mom to get supplies.

                                What follows would be a montage of forging the new frame, repairing parts of the engine, and Brigid herself would look at her Scion after repairing the car and say "This is Good."

                                This might be used OoC to perhaps justify changing the story of the Relic. Maybe it swaps out an associated Purview because of the difference in the construction mindset. Maybe the player says "Look I know this gives me access to the War purview... But it fits the character more if I swap it out for say, Guardian because she's not much of a fighter, but WOULD be focused on protecting the people in her car", to which I'd say "Makes perfect sense, alright, swap War for Guardian."
                                This is the part when you got me wrong. I'm not saying it can't be an interesting storyline. After all, a Relic can be improved even without repairing it when players level up their characters through another stage.

                                What bothers me is not storylines against Titans or titanspawns. What bothers me is when PCs want to destroy any Relics. I, of course, understood your point and it seems relevant even if it's not "destroyed" in your example, but only ripped to make some changes. But my point is when a player wants to harm another player, let's say a Scion of Loki wants to get revenge on her Band. If destroying Relics is a valid rule, then this player would want to do the same against her Band, right? It will not be fair if she's only allowed to steal it because destroying it would probably be a death penalty. I also understand that if every player wants to do that, will be trouble too.

                                Let's say the storyline of this Scion of Loki is actually to get even with her Band. Now that the Scion of Brigit got what she wants, the Scion of Loki is not happy because her teammate should have not been able to protect herself from the dragon that the Scion of Loki tried to summon via a pact made with the Titans. How would you deal that issue?

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