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  • Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
    Am I alone in feeling that, a) this all seems really ungainly in an action-oriented game, and b) it doesn't seem terribly true to the myths? Where are the stories of god-blooded heroes stopping to make an offering before every great feat or deed? Do you have to make a sacrifice/offering in order to use the very powers that define Scions? Honestly, it just seems like a clunky "game balance" rule to me, akin to the blood pool or paradox for vampires or mages - something designed solely to limit power use in-game. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not thrilled with the mechanics of this at all.
    Yeah. Unless, I'm misinterpreting the rules, you're usually only going to get 1 or possibly 2 Legend in most sessions. Even that will usually come from Fatebinding, which seems more reliable than sacrifice, though it comes with its own issues - I'm concerned that it will prove far more work for the ST, possibly too much to keep up with for 4-5 characters each working on multiple Fatebindings by the higher ends of Hero. Which is a shame, because I like the concept of some of the stuff you can do with Legend, but I don't see less mechanically optimal options like invoking your Title happening at the current cost.

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    • Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
      Am I alone in feeling that, a) this all seems really ungainly in an action-oriented game, and b) it doesn't seem terribly true to the myths? Where are the stories of god-blooded heroes stopping to make an offering before every great feat or deed? Do you have to make a sacrifice/offering in order to use the very powers that define Scions? Honestly, it just seems like a clunky "game balance" rule to me, akin to the blood pool or paradox for vampires or mages - something designed solely to limit power use in-game. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not thrilled with the mechanics of this at all.
      Stories of heroes do in fact frequently feature sacrifice. I'm sure it varies from pantheon to pantheon, but it's a frequent motif in Norse mythology at least. Plenty of both offhand mentions and stories that specifically revolve around sacrifices made, failed, promised etc.

      Now the Legend system IS obviously an RPG balancing mechanic. It's not like the heroes of the sagas performed sacrifice to recharge some innate divine power they had, but the notion that a juicy sacrifice to the gods could replenish your vigor and bend fate (even to an overtly supernatural degree) in your favor wasn't plucked out of thin air.

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      • Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
        Am I alone in feeling that, a) this all seems really ungainly in an action-oriented game, and b) it doesn't seem terribly true to the myths? Where are the stories of god-blooded heroes stopping to make an offering before every great feat or deed? Do you have to make a sacrifice/offering in order to use the very powers that define Scions? Honestly, it just seems like a clunky "game balance" rule to me, akin to the blood pool or paradox for vampires or mages - something designed solely to limit power use in-game. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not thrilled with the mechanics of this at all.
        It's supposed to be ungainly... Gods don't tend to listen to prayers without a little flair. Heroes in the Illiad pray to the Gods all the time... most of the time the Gods don't actually reply. Ravana makes hundreds of sacrifices to Shiva... it's not until he starts cutting his own heads off that Shiva so much as glances his way. Heroes stop to make offerings before every great deed because that is just the done thing when dealing with Gods... Actually catching their attention requires something big, and this is totally in line with myth.

        Hero Characters have access to powerful Knacks, mystical Relics, terrifying creatures, devoted followers and wise Guides... they have an entire suite of mythic abilities that does not depend on Legend at all, and many of these, like Immortal Knacks and Relic Powers, are explicitly there to make Legend costs cheaper.

        You say you might be missing something Purple... maybe it's all that? The fact that Purviews are neither the only powers Scions have, nor the 'definitive' ones. Heroes of myth are much more strongly tied to, and likely to use, their archetypal prowess, their mentors and weapons, their magic items and familiars, than they are to call down lightning-strikes willy-nilly. And as the game is designed right now, with the help of Fatebindings you can already do that twice a session... And that is only against actual challenges, that are meant to be, you know, challenging, and achieved at a cost... against trivial opponents you actually can throw lightning bolts all day because, as is pointed out in the book, affecting trivial targets is free. How much more of a power boost do you think Heroes need?

        I'm actually seriously asking that question, because between Relics, Knacks and Innate Purview Powers Heroes already seem pretty powerful to me, and that's ignoring the Boons and Marvels that only Imbue Legend. They need somewhere to grow to at Demigod and God.
        Last edited by Samudra; 04-14-2018, 08:02 AM.

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        • Nitpick: IIRC, one of the things about Marvels is that they never Imbue Legend: by definition, if you're attempting the Marvel equivalent of a Boon that would Imbue Legend, you must expend Legend instead.


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          • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
            Nitpick: IIRC, one of the things about Marvels is that they never Imbue Legend: by definition, if you're attempting the Marvel equivalent of a Boon that would Imbue Legend, you must expend Legend instead.
            ​Actually you do imbue Legend in Marvels, just not ones that emulate Boons. For example, the Marvel that lets you summon equipment. You imbue Legend in that, get the equipment and use it until you reclaim that Legend, at which point it either vanishes or just isn't being used and fades between scenes, whichever seems more appropriate.

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            • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
              Nitpick: IIRC, one of the things about Marvels is that they never Imbue Legend: by definition, if you're attempting the Marvel equivalent of a Boon that would Imbue Legend, you must expend Legend instead.
              I did actually mean what CreepyShutIn has already pointed out... Marvels that copy Boons do cost Spent Legend, but there are a lot of Marvel types that don't. Also, the thing with trivial targets still applies... so if you were to copy Bolt From The Blue as a Marvel against a bunch of trivial targets, it would still be free.

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              • On reflection, I think perhaps that it's not so much that I missed something, as that I'm perhaps not gung-ho about trying to run/play something where the PCs need relics, guides, companions, and creatures to be all that they can be. I'm not arguing mythical accuracy on that point, I'm just not sure how tough that would be to keep track of, let alone hide from the mortals to avoid the fatebinding mechanic. It's just my personal tastes, I guess. I've been running a very Scion-like game for many years now, and in my experience, players don't like obvious game-system baggage and limitations on their power. And, frankly, I don't either. But that's just me, and I'm kind of picky about stuff anyway. I still hate "come up with an appropriate sacrifice to use your Purview" as a mechanic, but I could just house-rule it away if I wanted to.

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                • why avoid fatebinding?

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                  • Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                    On reflection, I think perhaps that it's not so much that I missed something, as that I'm perhaps not gung-ho about trying to run/play something where the PCs need relics, guides, companions, and creatures to be all that they can be. I'm not arguing mythical accuracy on that point, I'm just not sure how tough that would be to keep track of, let alone hide from the mortals to avoid the fatebinding mechanic. It's just my personal tastes, I guess. I've been running a very Scion-like game for many years now, and in my experience, players don't like obvious game-system baggage and limitations on their power. And, frankly, I don't either. But that's just me, and I'm kind of picky about stuff anyway. I still hate "come up with an appropriate sacrifice to use your Purview" as a mechanic, but I could just house-rule it away if I wanted to.
                    This just seems like a fundamental disconnect between the game you were hoping to play and the one the developers made at this point. Birthrights are important to myth, they appear in stories across the world for all Pantheons, and this is ultimately a game about myths. I will just note though, that there is no Masquerade, so why you would need to hide from mortals is lost on me, and Fatebindings are accepted and even partially designed by the Player, so you don't really have to explicitly do anything to avoid them. Fate is a carrot, not a stick, and the carrot is the regained Legend point. Also, Purviews do not require you to perform sacrifices... most Boons Imbue Legend instead of spending it, so you'll get it back, Fatebindings can help you get back at least your permanent Legend worth of Legend points back every session, so you can spend Legend and still have a way to readily get them back, and using Purviews on trivial targets remains free, so you can happily set entire restaurants full of random people on fire if you so wish.

                    But honestly, all those options have been pointed out to you already, and I feel like we're going in circles at this point, so I hope you can homebrew the game to something of your liking.

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                    • I didn't find anything conclusive to answer my question so here it goes:

                      The scale table describes the first 3 ranks as: Standard, Elite and Supernatural.
                      This implies that once someone breaks a certain profiency treshhold they count as a scale higher, but it's never really specified in the rules.
                      For example:
                      Does the Strongest Mortal Alive (Might 5, Athletics 5) count as "Standard" scale for Feats of strength?
                      Does he count as Elite?
                      Does he count only as Elite if he is an NPC?
                      Does he count as Elite when he gets a Visitation by his daddy Susano-O?
                      Or only after getting Epic Strength and thus (through the inate boon) putting him at +1 Scale for Feats of Strength?

                      The last seems to be what the rules imply, but wouldn't really fit into the scale table, since narratively that puts him clearly on the Supernatural spot on the Table, but rules-wise only at Elite.
                      In the last case removing the Elite step from the table would simplify things.

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                      • For me, I found Fatebinding in 1st edition [and, to a lesser extent, in 2nd edition] to be too much of a ball-and-chain on the characters. If you use your full powers in godly fashion [which is why you are playing a game about gods in the first place, yes?], you run the risk of being Fatebound to not only mortals, but even entire cultures [as stated in the Hero rules preview], with your view of the world being affected by these bonds - "[Fatebinds] act to define a God and how the God’s relationships will play out in the future, which is another reason many Gods are careful to stay in the Overworld". So the system is designed to encourage development from mortal to God, then to tie you down with a mechanic that limits how much you can openly do unless you want a culture's expectations changing your very perception of your "self". Too much "stick", not enough "carrot" for my tastes. Yes, the sacrifice rule is optional - don't do a sacrifice if you don't want the Legend point - but what's the purpose of playing a divine character who can't use their full divine power without making time-consuming sacrifices and risking stalkers? It balances out power use vs. consequences, true, and maybe it fits with legends in some cultures, but it just seems that the whole concept of the game is supposed to be about gaining power, not limiting it. [Obviously, people disagree with my perceptions, and that's fine; different strokes, and all]
                        Yes, I am aware of the role companions [and relics/creatures/followers] play in mythology; I'm no expert, but I have read a fair bit of folklore and mythology in my time, partly out of interest, partly for gathering info for my own campaign. Giving options for including such things is great - it just feels to me that there are too many aspects of playing [particularly] the Demigod/God level characters that are limited by game mechanics that take away too much player/GM freedom.
                        I wonder; how many people are buying this game to play a faithful recreation of real mythology and religion [which it certainly seems to be trying hard to be], and how many are buying it because they think playing Gods [read; divine superheroes like Marvel's Thor] will be a blast?
                        Perhaps this isn't the game system for me - that's fine, I'll add it to my collection and pillage the excellent mythology stuff for inspiration. It wouldn't be the first game that had bits I liked and bits I didn't.

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                        • Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                          For me, I found Fatebinding in 1st edition [and, to a lesser extent, in 2nd edition] to be too much of a ball-and-chain on the characters. If you use your full powers in godly fashion [which is why you are playing a game about gods in the first place, yes?], you run the risk of being Fatebound to not only mortals, but even entire cultures [as stated in the Hero rules preview], with your view of the world being affected by these bonds - "[Fatebinds] act to define a God and how the God’s relationships will play out in the future, which is another reason many Gods are careful to stay in the Overworld". So the system is designed to encourage development from mortal to God, then to tie you down with a mechanic that limits how much you can openly do unless you want a culture's expectations changing your very perception of your "self". Too much "stick", not enough "carrot" for my tastes. Yes, the sacrifice rule is optional - don't do a sacrifice if you don't want the Legend point - but what's the purpose of playing a divine character who can't use their full divine power without making time-consuming sacrifices and risking stalkers? It balances out power use vs. consequences, true, and maybe it fits with legends in some cultures, but it just seems that the whole concept of the game is supposed to be about gaining power, not limiting it. [Obviously, people disagree with my perceptions, and that's fine; different strokes, and all]
                          Yes, I am aware of the role companions [and relics/creatures/followers] play in mythology; I'm no expert, but I have read a fair bit of folklore and mythology in my time, partly out of interest, partly for gathering info for my own campaign. Giving options for including such things is great - it just feels to me that there are too many aspects of playing [particularly] the Demigod/God level characters that are limited by game mechanics that take away too much player/GM freedom.
                          I wonder; how many people are buying this game to play a faithful recreation of real mythology and religion [which it certainly seems to be trying hard to be], and how many are buying it because they think playing Gods [read; divine superheroes like Marvel's Thor] will be a blast?
                          Perhaps this isn't the game system for me - that's fine, I'll add it to my collection and pillage the excellent mythology stuff for inspiration. It wouldn't be the first game that had bits I liked and bits I didn't.

                          Uh i think i'm getting an inkling to what a lot of people are complaining about.
                          I notice that you keep mentionning demigods/gods. Like how they are affected by fatebinding and its the reason they stick to the overworld. Or that people would want to play a god like thor.
                          Except the books we are getting are Origin and Hero, not Demigod and God (well not yet).
                          So far we cant play the likes of Thor (marvel or mytho) they are firmly in the scales of Demigods at least. First we'll be playing the likes of Jason of the argonauts, Beowulf (pre-grendel) and Hercules (pre 12 labors). We start with those that havent had they deeds sung by anyone. You need somewhere to start before you fling lightnings willy-nilly.

                          As for fatebinding, i think the problem is a mix between in 1st ed fatebinding being harsh (like you said) and the scion team warning about fatebinding a bit too well for 2nd ed. I mean, at hero lvl fatebinding would barely count as an annoyance.

                          So i dont think your wrong in your concerns so much as mixing the books and what they offer.

                          Also i want to say that i really relate to your last sentence.
                          Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                          It wouldn't be the first game that had bits I liked and bits I didn't.


                          Currently running: VtR - The most serene requiem of Venice
                          Currently playing: Being a dad for a 1year old daughter and a newborn son.
                          Currently planning: Scion 2nd edition

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                          • How much does an Immortal Knack cost in terms of XP?

                            The general consensus at the moment seems to be that "a knack is a knack is a knack," and all knacks cost 10xp each. Heroic or Immortal. You still have to have two dots of calling to slot an Immortal Knack and make it "active" though.

                            ...if this is the case..

                            Do you start with "five dots worth of knacks" at character creation, or "five knacks".

                            If you elect to get two bonus knacks, instead of +4 birthright dots, can you purchase two immortal knacks? Or does a single one use both 'free knacks' that you get?

                            Or, are Immortal Knacks supposed to cost 20xp, which eliminates all of the above problems, even if it makes them.. very expensive...

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                            • I'm a little bit confused on the Manitou' s Dream virtue. What behavior is it exactly trying to encourage? What type of conflict it brings? What's it's relationship with Pride? I feel like I don't have a clear grasp on that


                              .

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                              • Originally posted by Purple Snit View Post
                                For me, I found Fatebinding in 1st edition [and, to a lesser extent, in 2nd edition] to be too much of a ball-and-chain on the characters. If you use your full powers in godly fashion [which is why you are playing a game about gods in the first place, yes?], you run the risk of being Fatebound to not only mortals, but even entire cultures [as stated in the Hero rules preview], with your view of the world being affected by these bonds - "[Fatebinds] act to define a God and how the God’s relationships will play out in the future, which is another reason many Gods are careful to stay in the Overworld". So the system is designed to encourage development from mortal to God, then to tie you down with a mechanic that limits how much you can openly do unless you want a culture's expectations changing your very perception of your "self". Too much "stick", not enough "carrot" for my tastes. Yes, the sacrifice rule is optional - don't do a sacrifice if you don't want the Legend point - but what's the purpose of playing a divine character who can't use their full divine power without making time-consuming sacrifices and risking stalkers? It balances out power use vs. consequences, true, and maybe it fits with legends in some cultures, but it just seems that the whole concept of the game is supposed to be about gaining power, not limiting it. [Obviously, people disagree with my perceptions, and that's fine; different strokes, and all]
                                Yes, I am aware of the role companions [and relics/creatures/followers] play in mythology; I'm no expert, but I have read a fair bit of folklore and mythology in my time, partly out of interest, partly for gathering info for my own campaign. Giving options for including such things is great - it just feels to me that there are too many aspects of playing [particularly] the Demigod/God level characters that are limited by game mechanics that take away too much player/GM freedom.
                                Different strokes and all aside, you have some very negative opinions on Fatebinding based largely on how they are going to play out in Demigod & God, books which aren't written yet. We have a general sense of how these things affect Scions from what is more or less fluff text in the Hero book, but to me it doesn't make sense to make assumptions about how limiting those things are going to be in the future.

                                I realize that you don't like the effects of Fatebinding even at a Hero level, and that's your business. But don't try to justify your opinions with non-existent data.

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