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  • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    Sorry, I don't buy the Callings you mentioned. I mean clearly you are trying to dig them out which I understand because you need it to make sens but Athena is the goddess of wisdom and strategy above all. Cunning is that what you really remember of her?
    To quote Theoi.com

    Originally posted by Theoi.com
    METIS was one of the elder Okeanides and the Titan-goddess of good counsel, planning, cunning and wisdom
    So yes, Athena does take after her Mother.

    Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    Thor is fertility? Well, okay he can call rain to fall... but again, how many times he is represented or worshipped as the god of fertility?
    Dude, Thor literally has Fertility in the book... his Title is God of Thunder, Rain and Crops. I don't know what else you need.

    Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    So if I follow your reasoning. I could be... Wukong's son and be the God of water and oh, I'll add Prophecy, Prosperity and Beauty but since I need to be related somehow to my father, i will choose Trickster.
    Absoluely! Glad we're on the same page here Though Prophecy isn't a Purview anymore, so you'll need to take the Prophet Path or the Fortune Purview.

    Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    If I want to play the sexiest Scion to be a future god of lust and beauty, shouldn't I go for Aphrodite, Apollo, Bast, Isis, Freyja instead of Thor, Tezcatlipoca or Hachiman?
    Why? All you need to do is pick up the Beauty Purview... there's literally no penalty to using and having a Purview not associated with your Parent anymore, so why woudln't you be a sexy child of Osanyin or whatever?

    Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    What's the point in choosing Nezha if you want to play a merciful Scion. God, Guanyin is just on the previous page, man!
    Erm, maybe you like Nehza as a character and want to be his Scion, and not be punished for not making a carbon copy of him? It's not my job to fill in your character's backstory.

    Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
    My first point was there are better parents to come from when you become a blacksmith than Zeus and Hera.
    And my point is there's literally no reason a child of Zeus and Hera can't be as great or even better Smith than a child of Ptah.

    Comment


    • Cunning and wisdom aren't exclusive. Also taking some aspects doesn't mean it would be the same. Scion's take only pieces of their parent and build them to fit them to there liking.

      Also Thor being represented with Fertility no.but he was probably worshiped as such yeah. What we conceptualize from media doesn't necessarily correlate to how it really was in history.

      Edit. Ah sniped


      .

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      • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
        My first point was there are better parents to come from when you become a blacksmith than Zeus and Hera.
        Also, Neall's mentioned you can add new Innate Purviews to your powerset when you become a God. So Haphaestus grew into his power, mechanically. Again, there's not going to be a complete 1:1 mapping to perfectly capture all myth, like Samudra said, but this Edition comes close.

        Scions are going to inherit things from their parents. That's just how it goes. And as Samudra said, there's no XP tax for investing in Purviews that neither of your parents have, if you want to be a rebellious pissant. You want to be a Scion of Hades with the Beauty Purview? Relic Makeup, boom. Pick those Boons instead of say, Darkness or Prosperity or whatever you inherited from Hades. Paint on that smokey eyeshadow and make the living and the dead swoon with your awe-inspiring good looks.

        Honestly, 2e, for all concerns to the contrary, is actually far more merciful to Scions being different from their divine patron than 1e. There's no tax for getting skills your parents don't have, there's no tax for getting Purviews your parent doesn't have, you don't buy Boons with XP anymore so there's no tax for buying Boons that aren't associated with your patron.

        I could quite easily make three mechanically and personally distinct and viable Scions of Loki. I might, actually, to prove a point. (Not in this thread though)

        Eh, short version.
        • The Thief - In the vein of Leverage. Uses the Trickster Calling and the Deception Purview to target white-collar jackasses who abuse the 99%
        • The Activist - A social butterfly and ambitious lass. Uses the inspiring Fire Boon in combination with Liminal Knacks to put on multi-person art shows.
        • The Warrior - Wrestler by day, monster hunter by night. Gets good use out of the Epic Strength he inherited from Loki (it's been stated as canon and not changing SEVERAL times now so nyeh) and uses the Lover Calling to motivate his fans and make allies.
        Boom. Three Scion concepts, all legally viable, all taking something from Loki, all different.
        Last edited by Kyman201; 05-24-2018, 02:27 PM.


        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Iceblade44 View Post
          Cunning and wisdom aren't exclusive. Also taking some aspects doesn't mean it would be the same. Scion's take only pieces of their parent and build them to fit them to there liking.

          Also Thor being represented with Fertility no.but he was probably worshiped as such yeah. What we conceptualize from media doesn't necessarily correlate to how it really was in history.

          Edit. Ah sniped
          Thor wasn't explicitly related to fertility if I recall correctly, but there was a tradition of planting small hammer charms when they planted the seasons crops, and he was the god that blessed weddings. So the connection in Scion terms is understandable, it's probably just his weakest associated.

          Edit, as for playing characters that only have one calling and one purview in common and are otherwise entirely different; Drama. When Maudjee-Kawiss snubs you because you use leader and epic dexterity to coordinate and perform complicated surgery's, or when Heimdall doesn't like the way you use his Hunter and Epic Stamina tricks to perform Loki style burglaries it open's up dramatic scenes, and ways to craft great deeds and legends.
          Last edited by vonpenguin; 05-24-2018, 03:04 PM.

          Comment


          • I guess when you wanna be right so badly, there's nothing much to say ^^

            if you find joy in changing all the concepts because you just like Nezha but nothing linked to his story or his attributes... then find. Suit yourselves

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
              I guess when you wanna be right so badly, there's nothing much to say ^^

              if you find joy in changing all the concepts because you just like Nezha but nothing linked to his story or his attributes... then find. Suit yourselves
              Why on earth would you change Nehza's concepts if you like him? Presumably you like him as character because of those concepts.

              Nobody has suggested that at all... we've simply been pointing out what should be self-evident : That Nehza's Scions are not Nehza and should not be punished for not being carbon copies of Nehza... which, thankfully in this edition, they are not.

              So, again thankfully, I don't have to change anything to suit my preferences. You, on the other hand, are going to need to change a hell of a lot to get this system to conform to your expectations. Which, if you wish to do so... Suit yourself

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              • You just contradict yourself man but it's fine if you all understand yourselves. I'll wait for the God book to have the final answer.

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                • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
                  Sorry, I don't buy the Callings you mentioned. I mean clearly you are trying to dig them out which I understand because you need it to make sens but Athena is the goddess of wisdom and strategy above all. Cunning is that what you really remember of her?

                  Thor is fertility? Well, okay he can call rain to fall... but again, how many times he is represented or worshipped as the god of fertility?
                  Frequently. Mjolnir is a phallus symbol used at weddings and farming for that reason.


                  Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                  Comment


                  • So I'm playing a daughter of two incarnates. Sif and Thor as youtubing backpackers. Still in origin but my plan for her is:

                    Liminal - neither in Sif nor Thor because of how much traveling she's done.
                    Lover - from Sif and leveraged as love for the fans and love for her peers as her concept is a daredevil media darling who's known for pulling of great stunts.
                    Warrior - definitely a bit from Thor but she's prone to making more emphasis on putting on a show than on efficiently defeating her enemies.

                    Fertility because it's the only thing on Sif that was vaguely connected and I'm probably only likely to ever use the innate power.

                    Sun and Prosperity through a "relic" that is her having been born with golden hair like her mother.

                    Neither Thor nor Sif have either Prosperity or Sun as purviews. And these are going to be her primary purviews.

                    I am considering Epic Dex or Epic Sta because of the stunt aspect of her personality. But it would be largely extra.

                    She is a little bit her of her parents but it has been noted that she's far more Vanir than Aesir in some of her habits of presentation enjoying more flash and spectacle than most.

                    Comment


                    • I'm also surprised that anybody would find it odd for cunning to be Attributed to Athena. She is the one that taught Odysseus all his tricks.

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                      • Originally posted by Wickedgrail View Post
                        I guess when you wanna be right so badly, there's nothing much to say ^^

                        if you find joy in changing all the concepts because you just like Nezha but nothing linked to his story or his attributes... then find. Suit yourselves
                        Oi, don't go putting words in someone else's mouth. Least of all someone who's been nothing but patient with you.


                        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                        Comment


                        • I have seen nothing contradictory in any of their arguments.

                          Original position: Scion 2e forces you to play carbon copies of your parents which doesn't work when you look at myth.

                          Argument: Samudra, Kyman, and others presented several example characters that show that this is demonstrably not a problem with 2nd edition Scion.

                          Counter Argument: Examples from myth to that seemingly could not be done with the rules as they exist. Athena was one specific and that "there are better parents to come from when you become a blacksmith than Zeus and Hera." Thor being primarily worshipped in a fertility role was scoffed at. You also accused people of changing the stats and stories of Nezha.

                          Argument 2: Several presented you with evidence to show that Athena was a scion of her mother and that Hephaestus could have grown into his power at God because you can apparently pick an additional innate purview at that point.

                          Counter 2: Declaration that God will have the final answer.


                          The problem here is that the argument shifts around.

                          When evidence is shown that a scion can go completely left field of their parents evidence is presented out of myth of things that don't appear to fit the rules.

                          On the face of it this is a good tactic, but on the other hand, they showed that a perceived problem wasn't actually a problem, so it seems odd to continue the argument.

                          However, the argument did continue.

                          The Athena example was countered by pointing out that Athena was primarily the child of Metis. After all it was the prophecy that Metis's child would be greater than her parents which prompted Zeus to swallow her in the first place, so clearly Fate (or the ancient Greeks) attached more impetus to the maternal bloodline than the paternal.

                          The Hephaestus example was countered by noting that Hephaestus could have gained the Forge purview as innate at the God stage.

                          The accusation of them changing Nezha's story and nature is completely bizarre because all the discussion has been about scions deviating from their parents and I didn't see anybody even touch the idea of altering the parents stats in a homebrew or such.

                          The Thor protest is also odd because Thor was massively popular among farmers, indeed he was primarily the god of manual labor in general and especially farming. There are a lot of his stories that start with him farming or building something and getting interrupted for some cause. The bit about thunder bolts and his hammer is just what got latched onto when adventure stories were read or superhero comics were written. And also, in earlier days, because of the juxtaposition with Zeus/Jupiter which had also been syncretized with the Christian concept of the Abrahamic god causing that entity to shift from a nebulous inhuman concept to the anthropomorphized bearded guy in the sky.

                          I assume the "wait until God book" thing is based on the comment that, by word of Neall, at least one extra innate purview is to be had at God rank. This does present a neat little delay and escape for the argument but it still doesn't help the original argument.

                          In order to prove that it is hard to not play a carbon copy of your parent, a person would have to show difficulty in finding even one example character that isn't a carbon copy. My example Sif-child isn't the best one because while she differs on several key themes on story arc and personality from both Thor and Sif, she is very much deliberately modeled to be similar on a cosmetic level to her mother. However, Kyman provided three very good examples of Loki children who are quite different from each other or Loki.

                          Contrary to finding difficulty in finding an example that wasn't a carbon copy, it has proven a struggle to find even one example from myth where parents and child were very different and could not have been done by the rules. Even if, by some small chance, it should prove that new innates are not gained at God tier and thus that Hephaestus by myth is impossible by rules it still fails to prove the initial argument that the game is forcing one to play a mini-me of the parent. Because there are already numerous examples to show that plenty of scions go off at tangential directions to their parents.

                          As an aside, the original argument is something I disliked heavily about 1st edition Scion, but it is not really present in 2nd edition.

                          The inherited purviews and epics in 1st edition were never really the problem, especially since the only purview you really inherited was the Pantheon one and every other purview came through relics. The inherited experience point discounts were the problem.

                          In 1st edition, a character that went off at right angles to their parent would advance much slower than a character who followed in step with their parent's abilities. As such, the carbon copy issue was very much a problem. You could shift it about here and there like change the way you approach fire or sky with some custom boons, but you'd still be sort of Zeus 2.0 in many ways. And their iconic characters reflected that to a degree. Some were very different in personality to their parents, but most of them were also very alike in powers.

                          In 2nd edition experience point costs are flat. There's no discount or bonus. So a character that goes a different path than their parent is going to advance at roughly the same speed as a character who follows their parents' skills to the tee.

                          You're never really going to get a good match up of rules to story. Just like you're never going to get a good match up of story to reality.

                          Reality is very nebulous, chaotic. Most events have no real purpose and are really just quite random.

                          Stories are more structured but still very fluid and very flexible. While they might have a vaguely predictable overall shape and present a perceivable purpose, the details are still very shifty.

                          Game rules are far more defined even a role-playing game is going to have a lot of things that are more precise and limited than a story. RPGs always fail to get precise perfect replications of fiction because at most they can present a snap-shot of the fictional character as they existed for a brief moment in time before something about the story was adapted or reinterpreted.

                          I suppose this won't matter overall, but still thought I should say it.
                          Last edited by Thrythlind; 05-25-2018, 11:13 AM.

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                          • In addition to all the points made by people above, I'd just like to add that, other than the fact that it doesn't need to be channeled via Birthrights, Innate Purviews have no power benefit over Channeled ones. They are not somehow better than Channeled ones. So, even if Hephaestus never ever makes Forge Innate, he will still be just as good at Forging things.

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                            • And this is a bit delayed, but the argument of "Athena is Wisdom and Strategy, not cunning"

                              ... Cunning is like THE adjective most applied to strategies.

                              "Ah, a cunning strategy"


                              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                              Comment


                              • And how many variations of the statement "all martial arts is deception" or "all war is deception" are there?

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