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  • Ah on the topic of legend. Do Titans also follow the same legend scale as gods? 9 to 12?


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    • The Hindu Pantheon seem very different in Scion. They come off as the most Anti-Titan despite numerous myths of allying or joining with demons of various stripes. It seems odd they are on the forefront as compared to the Greeks. It also felt weird that the "love story" of Freyr and Gerd as well as Hades and Persephone (and perhaps the discretion of the entire Greek Pantheon) got sanitized as romantic where the originals were tales of capture and threats, but The love Story of Sita and Rama got called out. It feels like the setting made them a bit of the "bad guys" and I was wondering how that came about and if there was a setting reason they changed?

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      • Originally posted by PrinceKittyCat View Post
        The Hindu Pantheon seem very different in Scion. They come off as the most Anti-Titan despite numerous myths of allying or joining with demons of various stripes. It seems odd they are on the forefront as compared to the Greeks. It also felt weird that the "love story" of Freyr and Gerd as well as Hades and Persephone (and perhaps the discretion of the entire Greek Pantheon) got sanitized as romantic where the originals were tales of capture and threats, but The love Story of Sita and Rama got called out. It feels like the setting made them a bit of the "bad guys" and I was wondering how that came about and if there was a setting reason they changed?
        The Hindu Pantheon is anti-Titan because their mythology is practically defined by their wars with the Asura and their variants... the Veda are very clear on the glory of the Gods in their battle against the thieves of Water, Light and Cattle, all Big Deals, and the latter Purana literature practically starts every chapter with 'And then, the Asura attacked...'

        There are, of course, multiple instances of Deva favouring Asura, but those stories kind of get grossly outnumbered by the ones where they fight them or trick them out of power... they're not even mutually exclusive, frankly, as is the case with Bali, who was tricked out of his empire by Vishnu but who is also a devoted servant of Vishnu, to the point that Vishnu gave him an entire slice of Reality to rule, in the form of Sutala, one of the Patala levels (I'd like to note here that the Patala levels are consistently portrayed as amazing places to live, with Bali's Sutala explicitly noted as being better than Indra's Heaven, so it's not like he got a raw deal)... but the fact remains that the Deva do not hesitate to stomp out any Titan activity that threatens their worshipers. It's a very strong theme throughout their literature.

        I'll also note that the Deva individual write-ups make it very clear that that is not a universal feeling... Ganesha explicitly is totally open to Asura alliance, and only Durga and Indra get called out as ruthlessly dedicated to Titan eradication... and of these Durga is again explicitly noted as being only dedicated and driven by defense... she doesn't start battles, she just finishes them, very, very thoroughly. Indra is the big hawk, and that completely suits his character as someone who explicitly goes out of his way to harass innocent Asura as well (never mind that he's married to a Titan, but I figure he doesn't like total about it).

        As for the Sita-Rama episode, I can't speak for the thoughts of the Greek or Norse writers or their stories, but the love story of Sita and Rama gets called out by Hindus all the time... pointing out how horribly Rama treats his wife after he's defeated Ravana is a very common theme in modern critics of the tale, and even ancient writers clearly didn't like it cuz there's multiple versions of the Ramayana (which has several variations) that just erase that part of the story... this ranges from scholars arguing that the Section of the Valmiki Ramayana where this was described was never an original part, to straight up re-writes like the Ramacharitmanas (the actual most popular Ramayana version, not the Valmiki Ramayana) straight up just stopping the story after the happily ever after, to the really weird stuff like the Adbhuta Ramayana where Sita turns into Kali and murders Ravana herself, and Rama is too scared stiff afterwards to ever entertain thoughts of exiling his wife... basically calling that story out is very much in theme with what actual followers of the religion have been doing for ages.

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        • Originally posted by PrinceKittyCat View Post
          The Hindu Pantheon seem very different in Scion. They come off as the most Anti-Titan despite numerous myths of allying or joining with demons of various stripes. It seems odd they are on the forefront as compared to the Greeks. It also felt weird that the "love story" of Freyr and Gerd as well as Hades and Persephone (and perhaps the discretion of the entire Greek Pantheon) got sanitized as romantic where the originals were tales of capture and threats, but The love Story of Sita and Rama got called out. It feels like the setting made them a bit of the "bad guys" and I was wondering how that came about and if there was a setting reason they changed?
          Titanomachy is backstory in Greek mythology. Their myths are defined by the petty family squabbles of the Olympians themselves, not continuing conflict with the Titans (unless you count the one myth about Typhon and the Gigantomachy, which while not literally about Titans in the original sense, probably fall under that umbrella for Scion purposes - but still are an outlier compared to “Zeus was horny one day and -“ myths).

          Battling Asura is CENTRAL in the Vedas as Samudra lays out above.
          Last edited by glamourweaver; 09-09-2018, 01:16 PM.


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          • Originally posted by PrinceKittyCat View Post
            The Hindu Pantheon seem very different in Scion. They come off as the most Anti-Titan despite numerous myths of allying or joining with demons of various stripes. It seems odd they are on the forefront as compared to the Greeks. It also felt weird that the "love story" of Freyr and Gerd as well as Hades and Persephone (and perhaps the discretion of the entire Greek Pantheon) got sanitized as romantic where the originals were tales of capture and threats, but The love Story of Sita and Rama got called out. It feels like the setting made them a bit of the "bad guys" and I was wondering how that came about and if there was a setting reason they changed?
            In the version of the Eddas I read Freyr and Gerd was more "seeing her from affar and arranged marrige". And I've seen many interpretations of Hades and Persephone were Persephone was either reciprocating Hades affections, or trying to piss Demeter off and Demeter reacted with "She'd never marry that jerk, he must have kidnapped her!"

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            • I greatly prefer the version where Persephone reciprocates Hades's affections and Demeter freaks out. It's a lot more interesting than instance #3,678 of "a Theoi commits a terrible sexual crime."

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              • Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                I greatly prefer the version where Persephone reciprocates Hades's affections and Demeter freaks out. It's a lot more interesting than instance #3,678 of "a Theoi commits a terrible sexual crime."
                Agreed. And it sets Hades apart as one of the very small number of truly decent Theoi.

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                • Originally posted by Wannabe Demon Lord View Post
                  I greatly prefer the version where Persephone reciprocates Hades's affections and Demeter freaks out. It's a lot more interesting than instance #3,678 of "a Theoi commits a terrible sexual crime."
                  So do I that's my problem.

                  But that's not the original one and it has become very popular to romanticize it recently, but it just felt very odd. That Gerda who gets horribly threatened in all versions of the myth, and the entire Greek Pantheon get an oversight...which I prefer, no one wants to play a game with authentic Greek Gods, at least not that aspect.

                  But Rama and Sita is supposed to be Romantic, religiously, culturally. But they get called out. If you call them out, then why does Gerda and Persephone get a rewrite?
                  Yes, the Hindu pantheon constantly war against the demons but they also are passionately against war without proper action. Rama gives Ravana many opportunities to get out of the fight. They are all about war as a last method and giving ample opportunities to their opponents to end it peacefully.

                  That's a big deal, pursuing every way possible to peace but being called to war as a duty when that fails. Having one god be the "good god" in all this makes it worse as to highlight they are bad and don't see reason.

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                  • Part of it is the direction of the narrative. Rama treats Sita terribly AFTER the part of the story that’s romanticized (rescuing her from Ravana). Persephone and Hades are traditionally seen as mutually devoted (relatively speaking) when reigning as husband and wife after the whole kidnapping thing. In both cases it’s the lasting nature of the relationship that is preserved.

                    I’ll leave the Deva views of war to Samudra, as they are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am, but if I were to guess, you’re probably looking at Vedic vs Puranic issue. Remember the hostile war chief always itching to blow up Asura is Indra, not Durga, Karttekya, or any of the Puranic deities.
                    Last edited by glamourweaver; 09-09-2018, 11:56 PM.


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                    • Originally posted by PrinceKittyCat View Post

                      So do I that's my problem.

                      But that's not the original one and it has become very popular to romanticize it recently, but it just felt very odd. That Gerda who gets horribly threatened in all versions of the myth, and the entire Greek Pantheon get an oversight...which I prefer, no one wants to play a game with authentic Greek Gods, at least not that aspect.

                      But Rama and Sita is supposed to be Romantic, religiously, culturally. But they get called out. If you call them out, then why does Gerda and Persephone get a rewrite?
                      Please explain to me the romance of a woman getting essentially slut-shamed for having been abducted by her husband, then getting exiled to the forest while pregnant by the same husband, even though the literal God og Purifying Fire Agni had already given her chastity a clean bill of health (not, again, that that should fucking matter) all because a random subject of his had doubted that she was 'pure', and then said woman preferring to literally sink into the ground rather than go back to the man just because he wants kids now.

                      You can complain about the Persephone thing all you want, I won't stop you... but the fact remains that to the Greeks kidnapping a girl with her father's permission wouldn't have been that big a deal... the text itself makes it very clear that Rama's treatment of Sita is not okay, either by showing her explicitly refusing to forgive him and leaving the World permanently, or by just excising those bits altogether in embarrassment.

                      Originally posted by PrinceKittyCat View Post
                      Yes, the Hindu pantheon constantly war against the demons but they also are passionately against war without proper action. Rama gives Ravana many opportunities to get out of the fight. They are all about war as a last method and giving ample opportunities to their opponents to end it peacefully.

                      That's a big deal, pursuing every way possible to peace but being called to war as a duty when that fails.
                      Actually no, what is warned against is not improper action but inaction... the Mahabharata is absolutely full to the gills with improper and dishonorouable combat, most of it explicitly sanctioned by God (Krishna) himself, to the point that the Pandavas all end up in Naraka afterwards. Krishna goes so far as to tell Arjuna that he doesn't have to feel bad about the killing he's about to do since he's personally marked them all for killing anyway, so it was bound to happen one way or another.

                      And again, compare this to Indra who, far from giving people chances, goes around killing peaceful ascetics and splitting apart foetuses in the womb on the off-chance that they might eventually try to overthrow him, or the hymn to Vishnu that exalts his terrifying roar which 'causes thousands of Asura women to miscarry' (It's the Narayana Kavacha, in case you're interested).

                      It is true that Gods like Shiva and Durga give their opponents ample opportunities to retreat, but this is noted in their write-ups.

                      Originally posted by PrinceKittyCat View Post
                      Having one god be the "good god" in all this makes it worse as to highlight they are bad and don't see reason.
                      In fact, I'd contest this statement and note that it's quite the opposite... there is one 'bad' God, Indra, and he's the hostile war chief running around actively murdering innocent Asura.. none of the others do this, but again none of them are pacifists... Ganesha has more than his share of Asura blood on his hands.

                      The Deva are defined by their battles with Asura... sometimes literally, such as Vedic Indra whose victory over Vritra is the subject of 500 odd hymns, or Durga whose most popular epithet is Mahishasuramardini (slayer of Mahishasura)... even Shiva and Vishnu are popularly called 'Slayer of the Tripura' and 'Slayer of Madhu'. Kartikkeya literally only exists because the Asura Taraka needed to be killed, Krishna has a body count higher than some professional assassins by the time he hits puberty, gentle Lakshmi kills Kolhasura and has a whole temple town dedicated to it, Parvati kills Bhandasura with her sugarcane bow, Vedic Sarasvati rides into battle against Asura on her chariot, smashing her opposition to bits... and the only reason Agni Surya or Varuna aren't on this list is because they're usually the ones getting their asses kicked... the fact that the Deva let all those Asura rampage around till things got bad enough to require intervention doesn't change the fact that their tales are pretty much defined by 'this bad guy was killed by X Deity'.

                      The Greeks don't come close, not even remotely... they have events, wars with Titanic opposition, but it's not an everyday thing for them... It is, in fact, perfectly fitting that the Teotl and Deva see them as hobby Titanomachy participants... they kind of are, compared to those two, and it also makes the close and abiding alliance between Deva and Teotl very understandable (absolutely bizarre statements in the Teotl Relationships section notwithstanding).

                      I'll just note that far from being an attempt to paint them as 'bad guys', the Deva write-up, along with the Shen and Orisha, is one of the best researched and written of all the ones in the corebook... and the Hinduisms section is arguably one of the best and most concise descriptions of the religion that I have ever seen, and I'm including ones by other Hindus in that... everything from the background to the Pantheon relationships to the style of writing the Gods is evocative of actual Hindu Myth, things Deva Scions will be dealing with everyday.

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                      • I still bet it’s likely we’ll see the Annuna join the Deva and Teotl as hardcore Titanomachy crusaders. The fact that they’ve also got a complicated history with the Yazata probably further ingraciating Indra and Marduk as bros.


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                        • Originally posted by Samudra View Post
                          You can complain about the Persephone thing all you want, I won't stop you... but the fact remains that to the Greeks kidnapping a girl with her father's permission wouldn't have been that big a deal... the text itself makes it very clear that Rama's treatment of Sita is not okay, either by showing her explicitly refusing to forgive him and leaving the World permanently, or by just excising those bits altogether in embarrassment.
                          I think this gets at the heart of it. “Cleaning up” that story would be taking liberties with a continuously living tradition. Greek and Norse myth are comparatively much fairer game for writers to play around with. While there are modern devotees, those believers are reconstructing their tradition out of stories that were already part of the collective Western canon being drawn on. This doesn’t make their religions less valid, but it does mean they have less cultural ownership of said stories.


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                          • Something to also keep in mind about the story of Hades and Persephone is that we don't have the 'original' tale. What we do have is multiple retelling of the story, some of which we can date and some that we can't.
                            The truth as it pertains to Scion is that its likely that none of the stories are accurates. "All myths are true" but "None of them are accurate" is a good thing to keep in mind with Scion.

                            To me this brings an interesting element for the storyguide. When your players accomplish an important Deed that becomes part of their Legend, it is interesting to create multiple "versions" of what happened being told be people and to have none of those versions be what actually happen.
                            (Not sure it pertains much to the conversation but i thought it is something interesting to keep in mind.)

                            As for the "good gods/bad gods" thing. In particular about mythologies of ancient times that these gods operated on social structures that would be almost entirely at odds with our present concepts of morality. The Tuatha De Danann are a good example of that.


                            Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

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                            • Originally posted by Samudra View Post

                              Please explain to me the romance of a woman getting essentially slut-shamed for having been abducted by her husband, then getting exiled to the forest while pregnant by the same husband, even though the literal God og Purifying Fire Agni had already given her chastity a clean bill of health (not, again, that that should fucking matter) all because a random subject of his had doubted that she was 'pure', and then said woman preferring to literally sink into the ground rather than go back to the man just because he wants kids now.

                              You can complain about the Persephone thing all you want, I won't stop you... but the fact remains that to the Greeks kidnapping a girl with her father's permission wouldn't have been that big a deal... the text itself makes it very clear that Rama's treatment of Sita is not okay, either by showing her explicitly refusing to forgive him and leaving the World permanently, or by just excising those bits altogether in embarrassment.



                              Actually no, what is warned against is not improper action but inaction... the Mahabharata is absolutely full to the gills with improper and dishonorouable combat, most of it explicitly sanctioned by God (Krishna) himself, to the point that the Pandavas all end up in Naraka afterwards. Krishna goes so far as to tell Arjuna that he doesn't have to feel bad about the killing he's about to do since he's personally marked them all for killing anyway, so it was bound to happen one way or another.

                              And again, compare this to Indra who, far from giving people chances, goes around killing peaceful ascetics and splitting apart foetuses in the womb on the off-chance that they might eventually try to overthrow him, or the hymn to Vishnu that exalts his terrifying roar which 'causes thousands of Asura women to miscarry' (It's the Narayana Kavacha, in case you're interested).

                              It is true that Gods like Shiva and Durga give their opponents ample opportunities to retreat, but this is noted in their write-ups.



                              In fact, I'd contest this statement and note that it's quite the opposite... there is one 'bad' God, Indra, and he's the hostile war chief running around actively murdering innocent Asura.. none of the others do this, but again none of them are pacifists... Ganesha has more than his share of Asura blood on his hands.

                              The Deva are defined by their battles with Asura... sometimes literally, such as Vedic Indra whose victory over Vritra is the subject of 500 odd hymns, or Durga whose most popular epithet is Mahishasuramardini (slayer of Mahishasura)... even Shiva and Vishnu are popularly called 'Slayer of the Tripura' and 'Slayer of Madhu'. Kartikkeya literally only exists because the Asura Taraka needed to be killed, Krishna has a body count higher than some professional assassins by the time he hits puberty, gentle Lakshmi kills Kolhasura and has a whole temple town dedicated to it, Parvati kills Bhandasura with her sugarcane bow, Vedic Sarasvati rides into battle against Asura on her chariot, smashing her opposition to bits... and the only reason Agni Surya or Varuna aren't on this list is because they're usually the ones getting their asses kicked... the fact that the Deva let all those Asura rampage around till things got bad enough to require intervention doesn't change the fact that their tales are pretty much defined by 'this bad guy was killed by X Deity'.

                              The Greeks don't come close, not even remotely... they have events, wars with Titanic opposition, but it's not an everyday thing for them... It is, in fact, perfectly fitting that the Teotl and Deva see them as hobby Titanomachy participants... they kind of are, compared to those two, and it also makes the close and abiding alliance between Deva and Teotl very understandable (absolutely bizarre statements in the Teotl Relationships section notwithstanding).

                              I'll just note that far from being an attempt to paint them as 'bad guys', the Deva write-up, along with the Shen and Orisha, is one of the best researched and written of all the ones in the corebook... and the Hinduisms section is arguably one of the best and most concise descriptions of the religion that I have ever seen, and I'm including ones by other Hindus in that... everything from the background to the Pantheon relationships to the style of writing the Gods is evocative of actual Hindu Myth, things Deva Scions will be dealing with everyday.
                              Thank you for your reply, I am not trying to be hostile and you are obviously more knowledgeable about it than myself, and I admit being a bit sore and worried about it to perhaps an unreasonable level. I am not Hindu but my stepfather and sister always have been very devout. We played the first edition scion together and we enjoyed it a great deal, until the companion came out and they were deeply hurt by the portrayal of the gods, to the point the campaign revolved around it and the game in general was soured.

                              I was hoping this version would be less so, and while you are probably correct that the wider cultural analysis is more critical of the story of Sita and Rama, I always was told since I was little it was the ultimate love story. It is at least a story very dear to both of them, and I know that phrase will bother them, and to a lesser extent it bothered me. Add on my understanding of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana as lessons of always pursuing multiple avenues of peace before war or battle could be fought (except when made from hasty promises, which usually led to the lesson, of don't commit yourself lightly), it felt wrong and I was a bit ashamed I encouraged excitement about the new version if it was just going to disappoint as well.

                              I also admit the Persephone thing is long held, and that is a larger issue of me being frustrated her myth gets often romanticized often by the same people who tend to disparage the Rama/Sita story. It's felt hypocritical, but that's aimed mostly at those who like me, were at the peripherary of the Religion and not part of it, which felt Culturally Unaware. This happily, is not the case.

                              Admittedly, our family will probably house rule it, or make our own write ups of them if anyone wants to join in, so it is not a big issue. I fully understand a Culture is not a few groups of people, but I'd feel amiss if I didn't say anything. I do feel better knowing it sits well with other Hindus, and understand nothing can fully satisfy everybody. Thanks!

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                              • Originally posted by PrinceKittyCat View Post
                                Admittedly, our family will probably house rule it, or make our own write ups of them if anyone wants to join in, so it is not a big issue. I fully understand a Culture is not a few groups of people, but I'd feel amiss if I didn't say anything. I do feel better knowing it sits well with other Hindus, and understand nothing can fully satisfy everybody. Thanks!
                                Thank you for being very conscientious and accepting about this. Even among divine entities, feelings can shift and alter over thousands of years; and among a billion adherents of the Hinduisms, there's bound to be differences of opinion and narrative. But whatever works for your family and players, please feel free to houserule it, and I hope the new edition's version of the pantheon is more exciting to you and yours. If you or your family want to discuss this or the pantheon in more detail, please feel free to PM me here at this forum.


                                Neall Raemonn Price
                                Beleaguered Scion Developer

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