Ask Neall

[PrinceKittyCat]

I greatly prefer the version where Persephone reciprocates Hades's affections and Demeter freaks out. It's a lot more interesting than instance #3,678 of "a Theoi commits a terrible sexual crime."

So do I that's my problem.

But that's not the original one and it has become very popular to romanticize it recently, but it just felt very odd. That Gerda who gets horribly threatened in all versions of the myth, and the entire Greek Pantheon get an oversight...which I prefer, no one wants to play a game with authentic Greek Gods, at least not that aspect.

But Rama and Sita is supposed to be Romantic, religiously, culturally. But they get called out. If you call them out, then why does Gerda and Persephone get a rewrite?
Yes, the Hindu pantheon constantly war against the demons but they also are passionately against war without proper action. Rama gives Ravana many opportunities to get out of the fight. They are all about war as a last method and giving ample opportunities to their opponents to end it peacefully.

That's a big deal, pursuing every way possible to peace but being called to war as a duty when that fails. Having one god be the "good god" in all this makes it worse as to highlight they are bad and don't see reason.

[glamourweaver]

Part of it is the direction of the narrative. Rama treats Sita terribly AFTER the part of the story that’s romanticized (rescuing her from Ravana). Persephone and Hades are traditionally seen as mutually devoted (relatively speaking) when reigning as husband and wife after the whole kidnapping thing. In both cases it’s the lasting nature of the relationship that is preserved.

I’ll leave the Deva views of war to Samudra, as they are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am, but if I were to guess, you’re probably looking at Vedic vs Puranic issue. Remember the hostile war chief always itching to blow up Asura is Indra, not Durga, Karttekya, or any of the Puranic deities.

[Samudra]

So do I that's my problem.

But that's not the original one and it has become very popular to romanticize it recently, but it just felt very odd. That Gerda who gets horribly threatened in all versions of the myth, and the entire Greek Pantheon get an oversight...which I prefer, no one wants to play a game with authentic Greek Gods, at least not that aspect.

But Rama and Sita is supposed to be Romantic, religiously, culturally. But they get called out. If you call them out, then why does Gerda and Persephone get a rewrite?

Please explain to me the romance of a woman getting essentially slut-shamed for having been abducted by her husband, then getting exiled to the forest while pregnant by the same husband, even though the literal God og Purifying Fire Agni had already given her chastity a clean bill of health (not, again, that that should fucking matter) all because a random subject of his had doubted that she was 'pure', and then said woman preferring to literally sink into the ground rather than go back to the man just because he wants kids now.

You can complain about the Persephone thing all you want, I won't stop you... but the fact remains that to the Greeks kidnapping a girl with her father's permission wouldn't have been that big a deal... the text itself makes it very clear that Rama's treatment of Sita is not okay, either by showing her explicitly refusing to forgive him and leaving the World permanently, or by just excising those bits altogether in embarrassment.

Yes, the Hindu pantheon constantly war against the demons but they also are passionately against war without proper action. Rama gives Ravana many opportunities to get out of the fight. They are all about war as a last method and giving ample opportunities to their opponents to end it peacefully.

That's a big deal, pursuing every way possible to peace but being called to war as a duty when that fails.

Actually no, what is warned against is not improper action but inaction... the Mahabharata is absolutely full to the gills with improper and dishonorouable combat, most of it explicitly sanctioned by God (Krishna) himself, to the point that the Pandavas all end up in Naraka afterwards. Krishna goes so far as to tell Arjuna that he doesn't have to feel bad about the killing he's about to do since he's personally marked them all for killing anyway, so it was bound to happen one way or another.

And again, compare this to Indra who, far from giving people chances, goes around killing peaceful ascetics and splitting apart foetuses in the womb on the off-chance that they might eventually try to overthrow him, or the hymn to Vishnu that exalts his terrifying roar which 'causes thousands of Asura women to miscarry' (It's the Narayana Kavacha, in case you're interested).

It is true that Gods like Shiva and Durga give their opponents ample opportunities to retreat, but this is noted in their write-ups.

Having one god be the "good god" in all this makes it worse as to highlight they are bad and don't see reason.

In fact, I'd contest this statement and note that it's quite the opposite... there is one 'bad' God, Indra, and he's the hostile war chief running around actively murdering innocent Asura.. none of the others do this, but again none of them are pacifists... Ganesha has more than his share of Asura blood on his hands.

The Deva are defined by their battles with Asura... sometimes literally, such as Vedic Indra whose victory over Vritra is the subject of 500 odd hymns, or Durga whose most popular epithet is Mahishasuramardini (slayer of Mahishasura)... even Shiva and Vishnu are popularly called 'Slayer of the Tripura' and 'Slayer of Madhu'. Kartikkeya literally only exists because the Asura Taraka needed to be killed, Krishna has a body count higher than some professional assassins by the time he hits puberty, gentle Lakshmi kills Kolhasura and has a whole temple town dedicated to it, Parvati kills Bhandasura with her sugarcane bow, Vedic Sarasvati rides into battle against Asura on her chariot, smashing her opposition to bits... and the only reason Agni Surya or Varuna aren't on this list is because they're usually the ones getting their asses kicked... the fact that the Deva let all those Asura rampage around till things got bad enough to require intervention doesn't change the fact that their tales are pretty much defined by 'this bad guy was killed by X Deity'.

The Greeks don't come close, not even remotely... they have events, wars with Titanic opposition, but it's not an everyday thing for them... It is, in fact, perfectly fitting that the Teotl and Deva see them as hobby Titanomachy participants... they kind of are, compared to those two, and it also makes the close and abiding alliance between Deva and Teotl very understandable (absolutely bizarre statements in the Teotl Relationships section notwithstanding).

I'll just note that far from being an attempt to paint them as 'bad guys', the Deva write-up, along with the Shen and Orisha, is one of the best researched and written of all the ones in the corebook... and the Hinduisms section is arguably one of the best and most concise descriptions of the religion that I have ever seen, and I'm including ones by other Hindus in that... everything from the background to the Pantheon relationships to the style of writing the Gods is evocative of actual Hindu Myth, things Deva Scions will be dealing with everyday.

[glamourweaver]

I still bet it’s likely we’ll see the Annuna join the Deva and Teotl as hardcore Titanomachy crusaders. The fact that they’ve also got a complicated history with the Yazata probably further ingraciating Indra and Marduk as bros.

[glamourweaver]

You can complain about the Persephone thing all you want, I won't stop you... but the fact remains that to the Greeks kidnapping a girl with her father's permission wouldn't have been that big a deal... the text itself makes it very clear that Rama's treatment of Sita is not okay, either by showing her explicitly refusing to forgive him and leaving the World permanently, or by just excising those bits altogether in embarrassment.

I think this gets at the heart of it. “Cleaning up” that story would be taking liberties with a continuously living tradition. Greek and Norse myth are comparatively much fairer game for writers to play around with. While there are modern devotees, those believers are reconstructing their tradition out of stories that were already part of the collective Western canon being drawn on. This doesn’t make their religions less valid, but it does mean they have less cultural ownership of said stories.

[Maitrecorbo]

Something to also keep in mind about the story of Hades and Persephone is that we don't have the 'original' tale. What we do have is multiple retelling of the story, some of which we can date and some that we can't.
The truth as it pertains to Scion is that its likely that none of the stories are accurates. "All myths are true" but "None of them are accurate" is a good thing to keep in mind with Scion.

To me this brings an interesting element for the storyguide. When your players accomplish an important Deed that becomes part of their Legend, it is interesting to create multiple "versions" of what happened being told be people and to have none of those versions be what actually happen.
(Not sure it pertains much to the conversation but i thought it is something interesting to keep in mind.)

As for the "good gods/bad gods" thing. In particular about mythologies of ancient times that these gods operated on social structures that would be almost entirely at odds with our present concepts of morality. The Tuatha De Danann are a good example of that.

[PrinceKittyCat]

Please explain to me the romance of a woman getting essentially slut-shamed for having been abducted by her husband, then getting exiled to the forest while pregnant by the same husband, even though the literal God og Purifying Fire Agni had already given her chastity a clean bill of health (not, again, that that should fucking matter) all because a random subject of his had doubted that she was 'pure', and then said woman preferring to literally sink into the ground rather than go back to the man just because he wants kids now.

You can complain about the Persephone thing all you want, I won't stop you... but the fact remains that to the Greeks kidnapping a girl with her father's permission wouldn't have been that big a deal... the text itself makes it very clear that Rama's treatment of Sita is not okay, either by showing her explicitly refusing to forgive him and leaving the World permanently, or by just excising those bits altogether in embarrassment.



Actually no, what is warned against is not improper action but inaction... the Mahabharata is absolutely full to the gills with improper and dishonorouable combat, most of it explicitly sanctioned by God (Krishna) himself, to the point that the Pandavas all end up in Naraka afterwards. Krishna goes so far as to tell Arjuna that he doesn't have to feel bad about the killing he's about to do since he's personally marked them all for killing anyway, so it was bound to happen one way or another.

And again, compare this to Indra who, far from giving people chances, goes around killing peaceful ascetics and splitting apart foetuses in the womb on the off-chance that they might eventually try to overthrow him, or the hymn to Vishnu that exalts his terrifying roar which 'causes thousands of Asura women to miscarry' (It's the Narayana Kavacha, in case you're interested).

It is true that Gods like Shiva and Durga give their opponents ample opportunities to retreat, but this is noted in their write-ups.



In fact, I'd contest this statement and note that it's quite the opposite... there is one 'bad' God, Indra, and he's the hostile war chief running around actively murdering innocent Asura.. none of the others do this, but again none of them are pacifists... Ganesha has more than his share of Asura blood on his hands.

The Deva are defined by their battles with Asura... sometimes literally, such as Vedic Indra whose victory over Vritra is the subject of 500 odd hymns, or Durga whose most popular epithet is Mahishasuramardini (slayer of Mahishasura)... even Shiva and Vishnu are popularly called 'Slayer of the Tripura' and 'Slayer of Madhu'. Kartikkeya literally only exists because the Asura Taraka needed to be killed, Krishna has a body count higher than some professional assassins by the time he hits puberty, gentle Lakshmi kills Kolhasura and has a whole temple town dedicated to it, Parvati kills Bhandasura with her sugarcane bow, Vedic Sarasvati rides into battle against Asura on her chariot, smashing her opposition to bits... and the only reason Agni Surya or Varuna aren't on this list is because they're usually the ones getting their asses kicked... the fact that the Deva let all those Asura rampage around till things got bad enough to require intervention doesn't change the fact that their tales are pretty much defined by 'this bad guy was killed by X Deity'.

The Greeks don't come close, not even remotely... they have events, wars with Titanic opposition, but it's not an everyday thing for them... It is, in fact, perfectly fitting that the Teotl and Deva see them as hobby Titanomachy participants... they kind of are, compared to those two, and it also makes the close and abiding alliance between Deva and Teotl very understandable (absolutely bizarre statements in the Teotl Relationships section notwithstanding).

I'll just note that far from being an attempt to paint them as 'bad guys', the Deva write-up, along with the Shen and Orisha, is one of the best researched and written of all the ones in the corebook... and the Hinduisms section is arguably one of the best and most concise descriptions of the religion that I have ever seen, and I'm including ones by other Hindus in that... everything from the background to the Pantheon relationships to the style of writing the Gods is evocative of actual Hindu Myth, things Deva Scions will be dealing with everyday.

Thank you for your reply, I am not trying to be hostile and you are obviously more knowledgeable about it than myself, and I admit being a bit sore and worried about it to perhaps an unreasonable level. I am not Hindu but my stepfather and sister always have been very devout. We played the first edition scion together and we enjoyed it a great deal, until the companion came out and they were deeply hurt by the portrayal of the gods, to the point the campaign revolved around it and the game in general was soured.

I was hoping this version would be less so, and while you are probably correct that the wider cultural analysis is more critical of the story of Sita and Rama, I always was told since I was little it was the ultimate love story. It is at least a story very dear to both of them, and I know that phrase will bother them, and to a lesser extent it bothered me. Add on my understanding of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana as lessons of always pursuing multiple avenues of peace before war or battle could be fought (except when made from hasty promises, which usually led to the lesson, of don't commit yourself lightly), it felt wrong and I was a bit ashamed I encouraged excitement about the new version if it was just going to disappoint as well.

I also admit the Persephone thing is long held, and that is a larger issue of me being frustrated her myth gets often romanticized often by the same people who tend to disparage the Rama/Sita story. It's felt hypocritical, but that's aimed mostly at those who like me, were at the peripherary of the Religion and not part of it, which felt Culturally Unaware. This happily, is not the case.

Admittedly, our family will probably house rule it, or make our own write ups of them if anyone wants to join in, so it is not a big issue. I fully understand a Culture is not a few groups of people, but I'd feel amiss if I didn't say anything. I do feel better knowing it sits well with other Hindus, and understand nothing can fully satisfy everybody. Thanks!

[Neall]

Admittedly, our family will probably house rule it, or make our own write ups of them if anyone wants to join in, so it is not a big issue. I fully understand a Culture is not a few groups of people, but I'd feel amiss if I didn't say anything. I do feel better knowing it sits well with other Hindus, and understand nothing can fully satisfy everybody. Thanks!

Thank you for being very conscientious and accepting about this. Even among divine entities, feelings can shift and alter over thousands of years; and among a billion adherents of the Hinduisms, there's bound to be differences of opinion and narrative. But whatever works for your family and players, please feel free to houserule it, and I hope the new edition's version of the pantheon is more exciting to you and yours. If you or your family want to discuss this or the pantheon in more detail, please feel free to PM me here at this forum.

[Samudra]

Thank you for your reply, I am not trying to be hostile and you are obviously more knowledgeable about it than myself, and I admit being a bit sore and worried about it to perhaps an unreasonable level. I am not Hindu but my stepfather and sister always have been very devout. We played the first edition scion together and we enjoyed it a great deal, until the companion came out and they were deeply hurt by the portrayal of the gods, to the point the campaign revolved around it and the game in general was soured.

I was hoping this version would be less so, and while you are probably correct that the wider cultural analysis is more critical of the story of Sita and Rama, I always was told since I was little it was the ultimate love story. It is at least a story very dear to both of them, and I know that phrase will bother them, and to a lesser extent it bothered me. Add on my understanding of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana as lessons of always pursuing multiple avenues of peace before war or battle could be fought (except when made from hasty promises, which usually led to the lesson, of don't commit yourself lightly), it felt wrong and I was a bit ashamed I encouraged excitement about the new version if it was just going to disappoint as well.

I also admit the Persephone thing is long held, and that is a larger issue of me being frustrated her myth gets often romanticized often by the same people who tend to disparage the Rama/Sita story. It's felt hypocritical, but that's aimed mostly at those who like me, were at the peripherary of the Religion and not part of it, which felt Culturally Unaware. This happily, is not the case.

Admittedly, our family will probably house rule it, or make our own write ups of them if anyone wants to join in, so it is not a big issue. I fully understand a Culture is not a few groups of people, but I'd feel amiss if I didn't say anything. I do feel better knowing it sits well with other Hindus, and understand nothing can fully satisfy everybody. Thanks!

I also apologize if I got a bit too heated in the Deva's defense Trust me, after the 1e Devas Chapter in Companion, I was pretty badly turned off as well. I was pretty ecstatic when the quality of work done on the 2e Deva became apparent, and I hope that other than those two points, you enjoyed the rest of it

[glamourweaver]

It occurs to me that there’s an important reason for the revision of the Persephone myth that doesn’t apply in Sita’s case: giving Persephone agency. Sita has agency in her narrative - it’s tragic, and arises from her mistreatment, but she still raises children on her own, and chooses to reject the world in her sorrow - operative word being chooses. Persephone in the traditional telling has no agency, so revising that tale to have her want to be with Hades is less about making one of the male Theoi look less bad, as it is about giving the godess of the Underworld some control of her own fate.

[glamourweaver]

There’s no Riastadt power I’m missing in the Hero text is there? Would that work by just stacking certain Epic Attribute Boons with Visage Great and Terrible, or is Demigod level Geas going to open up something more specific?

[Kyman201]

There’s no Riastadt power I’m missing in the Hero text is there? Would that work by just stacking certain Epic Attribute Boons with Visage Great and Terrible, or is Demigod level Geas going to open up something more specific?

I heard rumors about the Riastadt being a potential Cultural Knack.

[glamourweaver]

I heard rumors about the Riastadt being a potential Cultural Knack.

Are Cultural Knacks a thing we know to be coming in a particular book?

[Kyman201]

Are Cultural Knacks a thing we know to be coming in a particular book?

Neall mentioned in the Scion Discord once that the team would like to put more Knacks of both Mortal and Immortal levels, as well as Culture Specific Knacks, in Demigod.

As with everything Neall says about future content I wouldn't assume this is guaranteed

[Yue Ryong]

Ok, I'm trying to get my head around how different kinds of Scale stack.

Here's what I'm pretty sure I know:

1) Scale represents a significant difference in some measure of potency; such as speed, size, numbers or divine 'weight'.
2) For Dramatic comparisons, Scale adds Enhancement based on the difference to relevant rolls.
3) Characters of a two scale disadvantage (or greater) are largely treated as trivial unless the game demands otherwise.
4) Characters cannot deal damage to targets more than two Scale above them.

All makes sense to me thus far. What I'm less clear about is something like this scenario:

A Band in a getaway car (Size 1, Speed 3) is hitting the tarmac after nabbing a phoenix egg from a cultist/crime boss, and her oni muscle (Size 3, Title 2 from a stolen Relic) drops into the middle of the road to block them, putting herself in the path for a violent collision.

Leaving aside the expectation that plot-relevant comparisons shouldn't treated as trivial, what happens?

1a) The oni is in no way fast enough to contest the car, is treated as Trivial and easily sped past before she's able to put herself properly in the way.
1b) The car can't do anything against something that big/heavy, is treated as Trivial, smashes into the oni & stops.
2) The oni has an overall +1 Scale advantage over the car, getting a +2 Enhancement bonus against them, but because the car is two scale faster, she can't do more than clip them, doing no damage to the car and limiting to non-damaging stunts (and vice versa).
3) The oni has an overall +1 Scale advantage over the car, getting a +2 Enhancement bonus against them, and the contest is rolled normally.