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  • Thank you for your answers so far.


    Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
    Most weapons get advantages in the forms of Tags, such as Reach for spears or Versatile for non-combat Stuntwork. Most fists don't get the Reach tag, or Tripping, without Knacks. As for why there's no more intense breakdown of Numerical Stats for the weapons... Frankly, fuck those. They make more sense for a Gear-focused game like Shadowrun or D&D, but in Scion, someone with their good old honest powers of FIST should be just as viable as the lady with twin pistols, save the obvious advantage of the pistols having better range. Scion works on Movie and Narrative Logic.
    Most melee weapons don´t get these tags. And it doesn´t matter to me, that your whip can help you with climb checks if i just want to fight you. While i totaly understand that in higher tiers the choosen weapon becomes less important, I, from a narativ (and most non action movies) logic, can not understand that a player (low tier without helping knacks and boons) who faces a sword fighter with bare fists says "fuck those swords i have my fist".





    QUOTE=Kyman201;n1316318]
    The non-physical Epic Attributes of 1e were boring in their implementation, and a lot of them didn't quite fit as their own specific Purview. A LOT of their tricks got folded into Callings and Purviews. For instance, Epic Manipulation can be nicely folded into Deception and Trickster. Epic Perception has a lot of its tricks in Hunter. And Epic Charisma's previous tricks fit nicely into Lover and Leader, while Epic Appearance has the Beauty Purview.[/QUOTE]

    That is a good explanation I can understand.




    Originally posted by Neall View Post

    Check the Antagonist rules; they have some rough guidelines for adjudicating Scale. Some more will be freely available in the FAQ.

    My question is not just about antagonists. My examples where missleading.
    You wrote a lot of scaling levels for "things" in your book (cars, Skyscraper, Tanks, Leadership/influence). This has lead me to the picture that if Odin (scale 0) himself walks on earth and is attacked by a sniper riffle (scale 1) he seems to be much weaker than I imagend him.

    But of course I will wait with high anticipation for the FAQ and especialy the compedium and thank you for your quick response .


    PS:
    Can someone help me with the only rule question I asked: Has the pircing tag an effect on SGC´s?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Talriss View Post
      Can someone help me with the only rule question I asked: Has the pircing tag an effect on SGC´s?
      If the SGC has no armor, no, Piercing has no effect on it.
      If it has a armor value, soft or hard, yes as usual.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post

        If the SGC has no armor, no, Piercing has no effect on it.
        If it has a armor value, soft or hard, yes as usual.

        Just as I wrote my question I found the solution on page 146 (Origin)... Still thank you.

        Comment


        • Unless im mistaken and fists have a weapon tag. But one advantage that weapons would have is all of them have the melee, thrown, firearms or ranged tags which give a +1 enhancement to the relevant skill.
          Also i would not allow the use of some stunts with barefists (like the sunder stunt for example). Unless, of course, the scion has a guide or relic that allow for the use of the stunt while fighting unarmed.


          Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
            Unless im mistaken and fists have a weapon tag. But one advantage that weapons would have is all of them have the melee, thrown, firearms or ranged tags which give a +1 enhancement to the relevant skill.
            Also i would not allow the use of some stunts with barefists (like the sunder stunt for example). Unless, of course, the scion has a guide or relic that allow for the use of the stunt while fighting unarmed.

            Unarmed strikes have the bashing, melee and natural tags (page 124 Origin)
            But i didn´want a rule debate. Thank you all for your input

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Talriss View Post
              Most melee weapons don´t get these tags. And it doesn´t matter to me, that your whip can help you with climb checks if i just want to fight you. While i totaly understand that in higher tiers the choosen weapon becomes less important, I, from a narativ (and most non action movies) logic, can not understand that a player (low tier without helping knacks and boons) who faces a sword fighter with bare fists says "fuck those swords i have my fist".
              This is a game where magic is real, Gods are real, myth is the tone of the day, and people can be shot and keep fighting with just one -1 injury ticked off.

              But fists being on roughly equal footing to a sword or a knife, or at least close enough for game approximation, THAT trips you up? Seems like an oddly specific thing to get caught up on.

              You wrote a lot of scaling levels for "things" in your book (cars, Skyscraper, Tanks, Leadership/influence). This has lead me to the picture that if Odin (scale 0) himself walks on earth and is attacked by a sniper riffle (scale 1) he seems to be much weaker than I imagend him.
              Problem one: Assuming Odin as Himself would count as Scale 0 all the time, and that Gods won't have some way to passively grant themselves Scale over mortals.

              Even if this is true, Odin will probably have access to any number of things to counter your example. There's multiple Knacks in the book for the Trickster Calling that allow you to go "You thought you killed me, but AH-HA". As a God, Odin will also have the ability to use Feats of Scale, which for actions that he himself is known for would let him give himself Scale equal to half his legend. As the All-Father of the Aesir, this would almost certainly be Scale 6. Which against a Scale 1 weapon is still five other levels of Scale, and I THINK that by the rules of Scale interacting reaches levels of "Yeah uh don't bother rolling, this doesn't work". This also doesn't take into account that there's Tiers of play, from Tier 1 (mortal) to Tier 4 (God), and we know that most Knacks just flat out don't work on someone two tiers higher than the user.

              Shockingly, there's sometimes more to a game setup and matchup than one single way of expressing Raw Numbers.


              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                This is a game where magic is real, Gods are real, myth is the tone of the day, and people can be shot and keep fighting with just one -1 injury ticked off.

                But fists being on roughly equal footing to a sword or a knife, or at least close enough for game approximation, THAT trips you up? Seems like an oddly specific thing to get caught up on.


                Problem one: Assuming Odin as Himself would count as Scale 0 all the time, and that Gods won't have some way to passively grant themselves Scale over mortals.

                Even if this is true, Odin will probably have access to any number of things to counter your example. There's multiple Knacks in the book for the Trickster Calling that allow you to go "You thought you killed me, but AH-HA". As a God, Odin will also have the ability to use Feats of Scale, which for actions that he himself is known for would let him give himself Scale equal to half his legend. As the All-Father of the Aesir, this would almost certainly be Scale 6. Which against a Scale 1 weapon is still five other levels of Scale, and I THINK that by the rules of Scale interacting reaches levels of "Yeah uh don't bother rolling, this doesn't work". This also doesn't take into account that there's Tiers of play, from Tier 1 (mortal) to Tier 4 (God), and we know that most Knacks just flat out don't work on someone two tiers higher than the user.

                Shockingly, there's sometimes more to a game setup and matchup than one single way of expressing Raw Numbers.
                For me the game has 4 tiers, and the first one is not that powerfull. English is not my nativ language so I have to put it that way: If by "trip you up" you want to say that I dont like the game as a whole you are wrong. As I have wirtten in my first post I realy love it. If you want to say that this annoys me I have to say yes it does. On this particular spot the system doesnt feel round. I waited three Years for the books and one of the reason was the new and better rule system and I tend to take people who want my monney for their words.


                Regarding Scaling I have at this point litte to assume that a God gets always a improved scale. Having to spent Legend every round doesn't fit my picture of Odin either. I do not now what comes in the missing two main books and so the question I asked where not general rule questions but regarding design philosophy especially regarding scaling. To let me understand where the game is going, what did I miss or get wrong.

                And while I realy apriciate your answers I do not how you give them to me. It may be my lacking english but I sense some arrogance / aggressivity. So I thing we should call it a day and stop it here.

                Thank you for your time

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kyman201
                  The major difference between how TC has used Scale and how Scion has is that Scion has to account for bigger things.
                  Unless Novas will be severly nerfed I’d say TC has to account for bigger things than Scion. After all Aberrant had Universe Creation as an example of the heights of Nova potential, basically Nova could have created the Titans, Gods and everything else at the high end of their power.

                  So the reason scale works slightly different on both game lines likely has less to do with power level per se but more to do with low power games being more important in TC. After all TC is basically about three different if connected games while Scion is a single game that is meant to start at low power but grow slowly, or fast depending on the game group wants to play, in power all the way into godhood. Meanwhile basic TC core game is meant to be something that may progress towards Aberrant and ultimately to Aeon but it is mainly meant to be played as is as a modern spy thriller or adventure Etc. That may never progress to those higher power levels. Similarly Aberrant is meant to be played at Aberrant level and the players may even prevent Aeon and Psi users from becoming important, hell the PC Novas may either save or destroy earth should they wish. Again the core system being the same makes it possible to mix Aberrant with Aeon but they should both be playable seperately.

                  That is what I believe is the difference between the lines, its not really about the power level but about different design goals.

                  Comment


                  • Agree with every word Possessed wrote. Aberrant is essentially as powerful as Scion, while Aberrant end game is more likely to be on a bit lower level (no SG, as far as I know, took all the way to Q10) Scion end game, they have access to basically the same scale. For example, what’s the scale of the Wycoff explosion? And he was not the real threat from Aberrant War.

                    As I said before, the objective on the game is different, Scion is more open ended, while TC is more precise on defining what is the scale of different things, from powers to equipment.

                    Why 0 and 1 to be the standard human? No idea, maybe we will see on Aberrant, there is something about dealing with objects and small superheroes, probably, but as far as I know, it’s just an arbitrary decision.

                    Changing a bit the subject, Talriss is right, maybe it’s about the non native language condition, but it’s a bit discouraging to deal with the way some people answer questions. I don’t have any difficult on formal texts or dealing with people speaking, but informal text and some slang mixed give some potential misinterpretation. Also we are here to discuss a subject and help the others, not to mistreat.
                    Nothing personal, actually Kyman201 is usually very helpful and have great answers to my doubts and the doubts of many people here, I just want to add this comment as the subject was touched.

                    Comment


                    • Yeah, I'd just weigh in and say that Scions and Novas sound like they're in the same sort of power level area rather than one being larger than the other. Scion might be more... abstract about things, since it gets into the weird wishy washy area of dealing with material immaterials and stuff like Ma'at. But, the creation of a universe is well within the realms of a Scion at the height of their power. It has already been established the formation of new Pantheons causes a cosmic retcon as a new reality is created. The Devá would even regard a universe as a sort of sandcastle to them, but they operate on funky cosmological scale. (not capital S Scale, just lowercase s scale)


                      Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                      The Šiuneš, the Pantheon of the Hittite Empire, The Enduri: the Pantheon of the Manchu Peoples, The Sgā’na Qeda’s: the Pantheon of the Haida First Nation, The Abosom: The Pantheon of the Ashanti, Lebor Óe In Dea: an Expansion for the Túatha Dé Danann.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Talriss View Post

                        For me the game has 4 tiers, and the first one is not that powerfull. English is not my nativ language so I have to put it that way: If by "trip you up" you want to say that I dont like the game as a whole you are wrong. As I have wirtten in my first post I realy love it. If you want to say that this annoys me I have to say yes it does. On this particular spot the system doesnt feel round. I waited three Years for the books and one of the reason was the new and better rule system and I tend to take people who want my monney for their words.


                        Regarding Scaling I have at this point litte to assume that a God gets always a improved scale. Having to spent Legend every round doesn't fit my picture of Odin either. I do not now what comes in the missing two main books and so the question I asked where not general rule questions but regarding design philosophy especially regarding scaling. To let me understand where the game is going, what did I miss or get wrong.

                        And while I realy apriciate your answers I do not how you give them to me. It may be my lacking english but I sense some arrogance / aggressivity. So I thing we should call it a day and stop it here.

                        Thank you for your time
                        I'd like to apologize. I didn't mean to be aggressive, but I tend to snark.

                        The phrase 'trip you up' in the way I used it meant something caused a mental stumble. A thing that makes you pause and go "Wait, what?"

                        As for Origin Tier, it's not as powerful as Hero tier, but an Origin PC is still stronger than a real life person. In the real world, if I were to get stabbed once, that would probably put me out of the fight for good, because getting stabbed hurts.

                        At Origin, even a PC with no Calling and no Knack can be stabbed once but just shake it off, taking a -1 so certain rolls, but stay in the fight.

                        I'm real life l, catching a sword coming at your head between your hands is a dumb move and will result one your head and hands being sliced open. But you can stunt it that way in Scion at Origin Tier.

                        Mortal PCs in Scion are as baseline human as non powered humans in say, American comic books, where Jack Heroman can somehow survive being stabbed twice and save the day, despite a lack of magic powers.

                        So when I said Scion, even at Origin, runs on action movie rules, that was very intentional. It's a very cinematic and narrative game, so someone bringing a fist to a knife fight is as viable as the knife guy because it makes for a better story.

                        Edit: As for my comments about Hypothetical Odin, I'll say this. I don't have any special insight into how Gods work. But I will say that it is not a good idea to assume they'll work using Hero rules. We don't have the God book, and we don't know how a God walking the World will interact.

                        So I'd hesitate to assume that 'Odin will go down to a Sniper Rifle', mostly because I doubt that would happen for a Hero. Hero-tier powers, in the forms of Knacks and Boons and Feats of Scale, would make surviving a Scale 1 sniper shot very doable. And Gods are far more powerful than Heroes.

                        In what way? What powers do they have? I don't know. All I can do is take wild guesses. But I very much doubt that a God is just going to be a Hero with larger dice pools. They tried that for 1e and it was very unsatisfying.
                        Last edited by Kyman201; 06-05-2019, 01:37 AM.


                        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

                        Comment


                        • Is it expected of male Netjer Scions raised in another religious context to become circumsised as a rite of passage?


                          Simurgh, Mysterium Thyrsus in Mountains of Shadow (IC|OOC)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tambov View Post
                            Is it expected of male Netjer Scions raised in another religious context to become circumsised as a rite of passage?
                            ​This is not a question that, I think, will ever be officially answered by the game. The status of your PC's genitalia in any respect is not the concern of the game authors.

                            Comment


                            • I'm glad to see that we can play somebody who's both a supernatural creature AND a Scion at the same time. I had to read the PDF section on that twice before I noticed.

                              So am I correct in assuming that the power cap on these templates (Kitsune = Demigod, Satyr = Hero) are for characters who aren't doubling as a Scion as well, or is full divinity just limited to humans?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                                So am I correct in assuming that the power cap on these templates (Kitsune = Demigod, Satyr = Hero) are for characters who aren't doubling as a Scion as well, or is full divinity just limited to humans?
                                I think those soft caps are assuming you're just a Denizen, and that the Scion Train has no brakes or Legend Caps.

                                I mean you could still die horribly if you didn't accomplish enough Deeds to achieve Apotheosis at the end of Demigod, but AFAIK, yes, a Denizen Scion can make it to Godhood


                                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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