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  • Hi, I have a question about combat attacks. In Origins, it says that bows use the Athletics skill for attacks, but in the combat section under Ranged Attacks, it lists Firearms as the skill. seeing as there is no specific archery attack, and the sample bow has the ranged tag, not to mention that Ranged stunts are archery friendly, my question is which skill is used for archery, Firearms, or Athletics?

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    • Originally posted by Nico diAngelo View Post
      Hi, I have a question about combat attacks. In Origins, it says that bows use the Athletics skill for attacks, but in the combat section under Ranged Attacks, it lists Firearms as the skill. seeing as there is no specific archery attack, and the sample bow has the ranged tag, not to mention that Ranged stunts are archery friendly, my question is which skill is used for archery, Firearms, or Athletics?
      Athletics, same for throwing objects. You can use the ranged stunts with any skill you use for ranged attacks.

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      • that's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure, thanks so much for the answer

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        • Firearms is mostly for guns. It takes training and muscle tone to fire a bow well, hence Athletics


          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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          • I would suggest in a pre-firearms period game, splitting archery off of athletics to replace firearms rather than having athletics also cover what becomes THE primary ranged attack skill, but in a modern setting it makes sense where it is.
            Last edited by glamourweaver; 06-21-2019, 03:56 PM.


            Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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            • I just noticed that the Strange Folk and Vodyanoi Paths that were in the Hero preview have been removed. Where did those end up?

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              • Originally posted by Mike McCall View Post
                I just noticed that the Strange Folk and Vodyanoi Paths that were in the Hero preview have been removed. Where did those end up?
                I think the Vondyanoi is removed to make it a bit more robust to expand on Sorcery options in a later book


                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                • The central text regarding incarnations and the secondary text at times conflict with each other. My question being are incarnations only a matter of reincarnation and incarnating lost pieces of a god or can a god create an incarnation when they are of the mind to do so? Bonus: In the case of the second option, how would they differ from avatars?

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                  • Originally posted by omenseer View Post
                    The central text regarding incarnations and the secondary text at times conflict with each other. My question being are incarnations only a matter of reincarnation and incarnating lost pieces of a god or can a god create an incarnation when they are of the mind to do so? Bonus: In the case of the second option, how would they differ from avatars?
                    There's no contradictions, Incarnate Scions and Incarnations are different things. By default as per RAW, an Incarnate Scion only arises from a dead God or a dead Scion that left enough of a mark on Fate to spawn a baby-Mantle... an Incarnation is a piece of a living God sent down to Earth for some purpose, usually with a pre-planned trajectory. I don't think the book actually uses the word 'Avatar' for either concept but I could be wrong.

                    Of course, there's some Pantheons (*cough* Deva *cough*) that spawn off what can only be described as Incarnate Scions while the greater Deity is very much alive. You can justify this as Yoga allowing the Deva to ignore that restriction. Personally I ignore the 'God has to be dead' requirement completely for all Pantheons. In my mind, the only difference between an Incarnation and an Incarnate Scion is that the latter is a PC.

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                    • By default, incarnations are born, grow up as humans, undergo a Visitation (in their case, an event that lets them realize what they are rather than a visit from their patron), and become Heroes with starting levels of Legend as they restart their existence anew. An avatar appears ex nihilo, has much or all of its Legend intact (I don't know which at this point), knows who and what it is from the moment it comes into existence, and has at least a partial continuity of consciousness with the god that it's an avatar of: it remembers being a god. And finally, there's possibly some sort of restriction on how long an avatar can stick around; an incarnation can stick around until death.

                      Fundamentally, an incarnation is a new entity that has inherited the mythology of a (former?) god and has a choice between embracing that legend or building a new one of it; an avatar is a temporary body that an existing god uses in order to visit the World for a particular purpose (such as conducting a Visitation), after which it goes away.


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                      • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                        By default, incarnations are born, grow up as humans, undergo a Visitation (in their case, an event that lets them realize what they are rather than a visit from their patron), and become Heroes with starting levels of Legend as they restart their existence anew. An avatar appears ex nihilo, has much or all of its Legend intact (I don't know which at this point), knows who and what it is from the moment it comes into existence, and has at least a partial continuity of consciousness with the god that it's an avatar of: it remembers being a god. And finally, there's possibly some sort of restriction on how long an avatar can stick around; an incarnation can stick around until death.

                        Fundamentally, an incarnation is a new entity that has inherited the mythology of a (former?) god and has a choice between embracing that legend or building a new one of it; an avatar is a temporary body that an existing god uses in order to visit the World for a particular purpose (such as conducting a Visitation), after which it goes away.
                        No, you mean an Incarnate Scion. Incarnations are on some level aware of who and what they're a fragment of. Incarnate Scions generally don't know right away until something clicks. You got it backwards.

                        Incarnate Scion - Independent, generally learning who they are, can reclaim the Mantle of the God they were a part of.

                        Incarnation - Spun-up life of a living God that is used to walk among the mortals without the God's full mythic weight behind them.


                        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                        • Right. “Incarnate” and “incarnation” are too similar for my taste to represent such different concepts, which is why I've personally taken to using both “incarnate” (adjective) and “incarnation” (noun) for what 2e calls an incarnate scion, and “avatar” for what 2e calls an incarnation. But that's my personal usage, and I shouldn't have used it here.


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                          • I'll be honest, I'm still seeing contradictions in how of Incarnations and Incarnate work. This has come up because I'm due to run a 2e game soon and one of my players is planning on playing an Incarnate Scion of Persephone. I guess this isn't mechanical problems but narrative ones, however its still bugging me.

                            The text describing Incarnates in Hero says that Incarnate Scions come about when a god dies or has their mantle sundered, and basically triggers all currently living Incarnations who then become Incarnate Scions and its a free for all to see who gets the mantle of the now dead/sundered god. (Hero pg. 19). It weirdly doesn't mention the concept of gods reincarnating after they've died or choosing to become mortal, which is what Xiuhtecuhtli is described as doing.

                            So with Incarnations, at what point do they realise who/what they are? Do they ever if the god never dies? The Teotl pre-gen character's write up in Origin implies he didn't know for most his life but then had a moment of clarity while climbing a mountain. But surely that was before his Visitation because that character is meant to be used in Origin games? But as an Incarnation did he even have a life? Was he physically born from human parents? Fluff for Incarnations seems to say that they can just be made, sometimes without the god realising, wholesale and Fate kind of makes the World work around them and discourages people from looking into their background too hard.

                            And then you've got the text in Hero where it describes how Incarnate get their visitation, basically performing the myths that the god they come from did. This seems to me imply that Incarnations and thereby Incarnates, don't know who/what they are at first but slowly realise it over the course of the game and then have a Visitation before graduating to Hero, but only if the true god they came from dies/is sundered.

                            But then I feel a lot of the above is contradicted again in a later section where it discusses how to Storyguide Incarnations. It says "They intervene with their children and pantheon-mates to bedevil, to trick, to guide, to welcome and treat as family, but they’re seldom — if ever — direct about who and what they are" (Hero pg. 45). This implies to me they must know or have some inkling, they are an Incarnation for them to know not to be direct about who/what they are.

                            So yeah, sorry if this is negative sounding and rambling, I'm not trying to cause an argument. I really want to figure out the intent here so I can run the game properly. But the people who've answered above saying that Incarnates and Incarnations are separate things, I don't think that's entirely true. Hero p.g. 19 says that Incarnate Scions specifically come from Incarnations who were in the World at the time of the prime gods death/sundering, so at the very least one is born from the other.

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                            • Originally posted by Solar Lantern View Post
                              I'll be honest, I'm still seeing contradictions in how of Incarnations and Incarnate work. This has come up because I'm due to run a 2e game soon and one of my players is planning on playing an Incarnate Scion of Persephone. I guess this isn't mechanical problems but narrative ones, however its still bugging me.

                              The text describing Incarnates in Hero says that Incarnate Scions come about when a god dies or has their mantle sundered, and basically triggers all currently living Incarnations who then become Incarnate Scions and its a free for all to see who gets the mantle of the now dead/sundered god. (Hero pg. 19). It weirdly doesn't mention the concept of gods reincarnating after they've died or choosing to become mortal, which is what Xiuhtecuhtli is described as doing.

                              So with Incarnations, at what point do they realise who/what they are? Do they ever if the god never dies? The Teotl pre-gen character's write up in Origin implies he didn't know for most his life but then had a moment of clarity while climbing a mountain. But surely that was before his Visitation because that character is meant to be used in Origin games? But as an Incarnation did he even have a life? Was he physically born from human parents? Fluff for Incarnations seems to say that they can just be made, sometimes without the god realising, wholesale and Fate kind of makes the World work around them and discourages people from looking into their background too hard.

                              And then you've got the text in Hero where it describes how Incarnate get their visitation, basically performing the myths that the god they come from did. This seems to me imply that Incarnations and thereby Incarnates, don't know who/what they are at first but slowly realise it over the course of the game and then have a Visitation before graduating to Hero, but only if the true god they came from dies/is sundered.

                              But then I feel a lot of the above is contradicted again in a later section where it discusses how to Storyguide Incarnations. It says "They intervene with their children and pantheon-mates to bedevil, to trick, to guide, to welcome and treat as family, but they’re seldom — if ever — direct about who and what they are" (Hero pg. 45). This implies to me they must know or have some inkling, they are an Incarnation for them to know not to be direct about who/what they are.

                              So yeah, sorry if this is negative sounding and rambling, I'm not trying to cause an argument. I really want to figure out the intent here so I can run the game properly. But the people who've answered above saying that Incarnates and Incarnations are separate things, I don't think that's entirely true. Hero p.g. 19 says that Incarnate Scions specifically come from Incarnations who were in the World at the time of the prime gods death/sundering, so at the very least one is born from the other.
                              Incarnation = The Base God Is Alive.

                              Incarnate Scion = The Base God Is Dead, Mantle Ready To Be Claimed.

                              The two words, despite their similarity, are not interchangeable.

                              So when Hero talks about Incarnations arriving to talk to their children or other Champions, that's because they know that they are the base God. They know on some level that they are Thor, here to talk to their Scion. Because these are maintained Incarnations, part of the God.

                              An Incarnate Scion has spun free from the base god somehow. Maybe the base God is dead, or somehow the identity was severed through an arcane ritual, or maybe a Deva made an Incarnate who is them but doesn't know it yet (which comes up often with the Deva, fukkin' Deva)

                              The Origin Pregen Teotl isn't an Incarnation, he's an Incarnate. Incarnations often know from the start that they're the base God. Incarnates have to realize it.

                              As for Gods dying and being reborn... That's what many Incarnate Scions do. Xiuhtecuhtli is dead, but an Incarnate Scion reclaims the mantle. Xiuhtecuhtli lives.


                              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                              • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                                Incarnation = The Base God Is Alive.

                                Incarnate Scion = The Base God Is Dead, Mantle Ready To Be Claimed.

                                The two words, despite their similarity, are not interchangeable.

                                So when Hero talks about Incarnations arriving to talk to their children or other Champions, that's because they know that they are the base God. They know on some level that they are Thor, here to talk to their Scion. Because these are maintained Incarnations, part of the God.

                                An Incarnate Scion has spun free from the base god somehow. Maybe the base God is dead, or somehow the identity was severed through an arcane ritual, or maybe a Deva made an Incarnate who is them but doesn't know it yet (which comes up often with the Deva, fukkin' Deva)

                                The Origin Pregen Teotl isn't an Incarnation, he's an Incarnate. Incarnations often know from the start that they're the base God. Incarnates have to realize it.

                                As for Gods dying and being reborn... That's what many Incarnate Scions do. Xiuhtecuhtli is dead, but an Incarnate Scion reclaims the mantle. Xiuhtecuhtli lives.

                                I see where you're coming from.

                                But I feel what you've just put is contradicted by Hero pg. 19. It says "Scions who are Incarnate are, perhaps, the oddest of the lot. The Gods frequently create mortal avatars, aspects of themselves that wander the World — recreating myths, experiencing life, and enjoying the various experiences of humanity. It’s these Incarnations that sire Scions. However, when a God’s mantle is sundered from their physical form, or a God is killed, any Incarnations they have left in the World are cast asunder…but not forgotten. These Incarnations become full-fledged Scions, awakening to their true identity but bereft of patronage or power from their dead over-selves."

                                So by that, again using the Teotl pre-gen as an example, as an Incarnate Scion he would have started out as an Incarnation wouldn't he? Or am I missing something?

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