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  • Not necessary. The god can decide to spontaneously became a incarnate scion, he can make an avatar became independent and he can be born again as a scion when dies. There is no restrict rule about it...

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    • Originally posted by Solar Lantern View Post
      So by that, again using the Teotl pre-gen as an example, as an Incarnate Scion he would have started out as an Incarnation wouldn't he? Or am I missing something?
      In his case. Yes. He was an Incarnation.

      He is not anymore. He is an Incarnate Scion.

      Because the base god that made him is dead.

      He has broken off from the base God.

      Thus he is not an Incarnation.

      He is an Incarnate Scion.

      He was one thing, and became another due to an event. In this case, his base God dying. Which broke the connection.

      I'm trying to simplify this as much as I can but I'm not sure how to be clearer.

      Now there's also room to spin it somewhat. A God deliberately resetting themselves and being reborn with no memories beyond a sense of deja vu? That could be an Incarnate. A human born and raised normally but is also the Base God but doesn't know it? THAT could be an Incarnate.

      Shockingly, Mythology across all of its cultures and all of its many colorful histories can't be perfectly represented by one tabletop game without putting in a sidebar every page going "Exceptions in Myth include"

      But my main point is this, and this is I think the most important thing to keep in mind:

      If they know for certain that they are a greater God, that's an Incarnation. Incarnations are aware of their nature to some degree and advance the will of their base God.

      Incarnates generally have to discover their nature and can fight against it. They have broken away from the base God. How is up for debate, but in the game it's usually that the Base God is dead, and their Mantle can be reclaimed.


      If you start from that point, it starts to make more sense. Just remember the main difference: Incarnations have an active link to the main God Identity, Incarnations do NOT.


      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
        In his case. Yes. He was an Incarnation.

        He is not anymore. He is an Incarnate Scion.

        Because the base god that made him is dead.

        He has broken off from the base God.

        Thus he is not an Incarnation.

        He is an Incarnate Scion.

        He was one thing, and became another due to an event. In this case, his base God dying. Which broke the connection.

        I'm trying to simplify this as much as I can but I'm not sure how to be clearer.

        Now there's also room to spin it somewhat. A God deliberately resetting themselves and being reborn with no memories beyond a sense of deja vu? That could be an Incarnate. A human born and raised normally but is also the Base God but doesn't know it? THAT could be an Incarnate.

        Shockingly, Mythology across all of its cultures and all of its many colorful histories can't be perfectly represented by one tabletop game without putting in a sidebar every page going "Exceptions in Myth include"

        But my main point is this, and this is I think the most important thing to keep in mind:

        If they know for certain that they are a greater God, that's an Incarnation. Incarnations are aware of their nature to some degree and advance the will of their base God.

        Incarnates generally have to discover their nature and can fight against it. They have broken away from the base God. How is up for debate, but in the game it's usually that the Base God is dead, and their Mantle can be reclaimed.


        If you start from that point, it starts to make more sense. Just remember the main difference: Incarnations have an active link to the main God Identity, Incarnations do NOT.

        Genuinely thank you helping to clarify things and apologies if I am coming across as dense. I do understand there's a difference between Incarncations and Incarnate. What I'm trying to work out is what I feel is a discrepancy in the fluff about the level of memory that each one has. I'm going to use an example so I can try and be clear.

        Thor, let's call him Prime Thor to distinguish makes 1 or more Incarnations so they can go about the World. One of them we'll call mini-Thor is the person one of my players wants to play. As an Incarnation, mini-Thor knew he was an aspect of Prime Thor and went about his business in the World but still his own entity, so had full memory that he was an Incarnation. Tragedy strikes and Ragnarok occurs, Thor dies. So mini-Thor and any other Incarnations then 'trigger' as it were and become Incarnate Scions. mini-thor, his fellow ex-Incarncations and any existing born Scions of Thor can them fight for his mantle.

        The text says part of that journey for mini-Thor is piecing together the memories of who they once were, which seems to imply that he doesn't fully know who they were or an Incarnate of. But surely they would already know because up until Prime Thor died, mini-Thor was one of his Incarnations going about the World with full memory.

        So that's where my confusion is coming from and what I'm unfortunately struggling with. Again, any help is appreciated.
        Last edited by Solar Lantern; 07-02-2019, 03:50 AM.

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        • Originally posted by Solar Lantern View Post
          The text says part of that journey for mini-Thor is piecing together the memories of who they once were, which seems to imply that he doesn't fully know who they were or an Incarnate of. But surely they would already know because up until Prime Thor died, mini-Thor was one of his Incarnations going about the World with full memory.

          So that's where my confusion is coming from and what I'm unfortunately struggling with. Again, any help is appreciated.
          Yes. They probably did know.

          Then one day, they didn't.

          They have their memories of their time on Earth, and Fate will give them enough of a backstory to stand up to full scrutiny, but the sense of "I am Thor in Mortal Flesh" will be gone from their minds. They may have a sense of familiarity, a sort of comfort when they look at thunderstorms, or a sense of satisfaction when they see the rain nourishing farmland.

          But most of them wouldn't KNOW until a spark ignites it. I would play this as the Scion's Visitation, as the book mentions that a Visitation is less being visited and more when the Mythic intrudes on their life. I fluff it as "The moment when the Scion realizes that they're a Protagonist".

          Fate will recognize these Incarnations, and their paths will naturally fall into steps that echo the Deeds of the original Thor. For it is in emulation of the Deeds of a God that you attract their Mantle, their divine identity. To claim a Mantle, you walk like the God until the God walks like you.

          So let's have... Karl, Mark, and Sven as established Incarnations of Thor. They would go through life, one with the history of a farmer who gives advice to those who ask, one who moonlights as a professional wrestler, and one who appears in storms. They all have these histories they're aware of... But they all, also, know that they are Thor in some way or another. Not something they think about every day.

          But then, one day, the Main Thor himself dies. This is especially bad as it was not in fact due to being poisoned by a giant snake come Ragnarok. They need a new Thor. However, as Thor is dead, his Incarnations suffered from his loss, like a rubber band snapping free. So Karl, Mark, and Sven just know themselves as a farmer, a wrestler, and a stormchaser. Until one day, when they are doing something that calls to some of Thor's deeds (maybe Mark the Wrestler is facing down a Heel outside of his weight class and realizes that somehow, fighting really big opponents feels RIGHT) and they have an epiphany. A sense of "This is Important. I've done this before"

          And if you want to get pedantic, if Thor dies in Ragnarok then his Mantle's probably going to be destroyed completely. Maybe the Mini-Thors will be able to build their new Legends, but none of them will be able to become the New Thor, as Thor is dead.

          Also, a bit of advice for the book in general... Don't sweat the details too much. Myth is weird, and exceptions exist for basically everything. Incarnate Scions can be fluffed with minimal adjustment to cover any kind of "Famous Figure Reborn". Sometimes the line between what is an Incarnation and what is a Created Scion can be odd. And your Genesis doesn't really have a big enough mechanical effect for it to be worth getting too caught up in the details.


          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
            Yes. They probably did know.

            Then one day, they didn't.

            They have their memories of their time on Earth, and Fate will give them enough of a backstory to stand up to full scrutiny, but the sense of "I am Thor in Mortal Flesh" will be gone from their minds. They may have a sense of familiarity, a sort of comfort when they look at thunderstorms, or a sense of satisfaction when they see the rain nourishing farmland.

            But most of them wouldn't KNOW until a spark ignites it. I would play this as the Scion's Visitation, as the book mentions that a Visitation is less being visited and more when the Mythic intrudes on their life. I fluff it as "The moment when the Scion realizes that they're a Protagonist".

            Fate will recognize these Incarnations, and their paths will naturally fall into steps that echo the Deeds of the original Thor. For it is in emulation of the Deeds of a God that you attract their Mantle, their divine identity. To claim a Mantle, you walk like the God until the God walks like you.

            So let's have... Karl, Mark, and Sven as established Incarnations of Thor. They would go through life, one with the history of a farmer who gives advice to those who ask, one who moonlights as a professional wrestler, and one who appears in storms. They all have these histories they're aware of... But they all, also, know that they are Thor in some way or another. Not something they think about every day.

            But then, one day, the Main Thor himself dies. This is especially bad as it was not in fact due to being poisoned by a giant snake come Ragnarok. They need a new Thor. However, as Thor is dead, his Incarnations suffered from his loss, like a rubber band snapping free. So Karl, Mark, and Sven just know themselves as a farmer, a wrestler, and a stormchaser. Until one day, when they are doing something that calls to some of Thor's deeds (maybe Mark the Wrestler is facing down a Heel outside of his weight class and realizes that somehow, fighting really big opponents feels RIGHT) and they have an epiphany. A sense of "This is Important. I've done this before"

            And if you want to get pedantic, if Thor dies in Ragnarok then his Mantle's probably going to be destroyed completely. Maybe the Mini-Thors will be able to build their new Legends, but none of them will be able to become the New Thor, as Thor is dead.

            Also, a bit of advice for the book in general... Don't sweat the details too much. Myth is weird, and exceptions exist for basically everything. Incarnate Scions can be fluffed with minimal adjustment to cover any kind of "Famous Figure Reborn". Sometimes the line between what is an Incarnation and what is a Created Scion can be odd. And your Genesis doesn't really have a big enough mechanical effect for it to be worth getting too caught up in the details.
            Ok that I feel works better, thank you

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            • Originally posted by Solar Lantern View Post

              The text says part of that journey for mini-Thor is piecing together the memories of who they once were, which seems to imply that he doesn't fully know who they were or an Incarnate of. But surely they would already know because up until Prime Thor died, mini-Thor was one of his Incarnations going about the World with full memory.

              So that's where my confusion is coming from and what I'm unfortunately struggling with. Again, any help is appreciated.
              Part of this will be clarified in Demigod, but at the Hero level there's some potential ambiguity as to the God you're stemmed from and becoming. A "deliberate" reset - ritual suicide - like the Teotl signature character will have a clearer memory and identity than that of an Incarnation, which doesn't necessarily know they're a God until the trauma of Visitation-by-parental-death.

              Incarnations, as a concept, come from two sources...one is the comic Mage by Matt Wagner, and the other has to do with the ending of Sandman by Neil Gaiman. I'd like you to be able to play both in Scion.


              Neall Raemonn Price
              Beleaguered Scion Developer

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              • I’m really curious to see how playing a figure like Rama is going to work, since he seems to fit the definition of an Incarnate Scion, but his fully divine self (Vishnu) did not die in any way, and in apotheosis Rama seems to become a new Mantle for Vishnu.

                My working hypothesis is that the Deva have a God level Yoga Boon that breaks the normal rules for making Incarnate Scions.


                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                • So, I was checking through the Variant Satyr options, and noticed the Hulder, which are described as being creatures who generally don't like being disturbed. After a while, I realized the name sounded familiar, and decided to look it up online, and discovered these things, which don't entirely mash up with the write up provided in the Scion book.

                  Just to clarify, are we talking about the same Hulder who have a gaping, wooden hole in their backsides, or is this a different kind of folk lore I'm not familiar with?

                  Slightly NSFW

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                  • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                    I’m really curious to see how playing a figure like Rama is going to work, since he seems to fit the definition of an Incarnate Scion, but his fully divine self (Vishnu) did not die in any way, and in apotheosis Rama seems to become a new Mantle for Vishnu.

                    My working hypothesis is that the Deva have a God level Yoga Boon that breaks the normal rules for making Incarnate Scions.
                    Personally, I'm just saying that the divine parent doesn't have to be dead in order for an Incarnate Scion to happen. Not working according to the rulebook, of course, but definitely flows better for me.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mike McCall View Post

                      Personally, I'm just saying that the divine parent doesn't have to be dead in order for an Incarnate Scion to happen. Not working according to the rulebook, of course, but definitely flows better for me.
                      That is also how id work it.
                      Tho i think i sould have that both the incarnate scion and the original god mantle cant coexist at the same time at god tier? Maybe have a clash of somekind happen to readjust who is the mantle.

                      Its probably something we'll see more in the God book.


                      Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

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                      • Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post

                        That is also how id work it.
                        Tho i think i sould have that both the incarnate scion and the original god mantle cant coexist at the same time at god tier? Maybe have a clash of somekind happen to readjust who is the mantle.

                        Its probably something we'll see more in the God book.
                        That would be a major reason why Incarnate Scions are fundamentally connected to dead gods, yes: the idea is that the Scion is reconstructing a broken mantle and, upon achieving Apotheosis, reclaims it. If you allow for Incarnate Scions of living gods, you'll eventually need to resolve what happens when the Scion attempts to transition to God-tier; and saying that he can't until the existing god is dead, or that he loses agency by merging into said Godhead, or that existing Godhead loses agency by merging into him, are all problematic.


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                        • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post

                          That would be a major reason why Incarnate Scions are fundamentally connected to dead gods, yes: the idea is that the Scion is reconstructing a broken mantle and, upon achieving Apotheosis, reclaims it. If you allow for Incarnate Scions of living gods, you'll eventually need to resolve what happens when the Scion attempts to transition to God-tier; and saying that he can't until the existing god is dead, or that he loses agency by merging into said Godhead, or that existing Godhead loses agency by merging into him, are all problematic.
                          You say problematic, I say "Hello character story!"

                          Go, rogue Incarnate of Zeus. Kill the old Zeus and take the mantle.


                          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                          • Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                            You say problematic, I say "Hello character story!"

                            Go, rogue Incarnate of Zeus. Kill the old Zeus and take the mantle.

                            "Zeus is dead, long live the new Zeus!"

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                            • hi so smol question, and forgive me if this has been answered somewhere already, i've done some checking and i can't seem to find an answer. I'm looking for some information about what would a 'god' that has been hidden from humanity look like? so gods are fate bound into shapes we can recognize, while they do not need humanity, humanity is the mirror in which they see them selves. So what happens when that mirror for whatever reason isn't present? are they just a titan? do they have some sort of personhood? i've got my own ideas but i was wondering if theres something more official so i don't need to preform back flips in my campaign once demigod/god comes out.

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                              • Originally posted by Common_Monster View Post
                                hi so smol question, and forgive me if this has been answered somewhere already, i've done some checking and i can't seem to find an answer. I'm looking for some information about what would a 'god' that has been hidden from humanity look like? so gods are fate bound into shapes we can recognize, while they do not need humanity, humanity is the mirror in which they see them selves. So what happens when that mirror for whatever reason isn't present? are they just a titan? do they have some sort of personhood? i've got my own ideas but i was wondering if theres something more official so i don't need to preform back flips in my campaign once demigod/god comes out.
                                The only real difference wouls be that this god has less fatebindings. Of which the precise mechabics are unknown at the god tier as that book isnt out yet.
                                So ... form the only info we have so far id say this is a god with less capacity to regain legend.
                                Extrapolating from this (and thus probably being wrong), id go with a god with no capacity to regain legend.

                                Aside from that i dont think there is much diffence with any other god.


                                Currently running: Scion 2nd Edition. Les Légendes Currently playing: Being a dad for a 2year old daughter and a newborn son.

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