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  • #61
    Originally posted by xhepablo View Post
    For the Yazata myths and cosmology, you'll want to read four texts:
    --The Avesta (http://www.avesta.org/) [Sacred texts]
    --The Shanameh (http://classics.mit.edu/Ferdowsi/kings.html) [Ferdowsi's mythological epic poem]
    --The Greater Bundahishn (http://www.avesta.org/mp/grb.htm) [Cosmology and Creation]
    --The Denkard (http://www.avesta.org/denkard/denkard.htm) [Cosmology and Exegesis]

    Avesta.org in general is a great resource of texts, especially on what was believed in Sassanian and Medieval times.
    Thanks! Xhepablo

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Watcher View Post

      I'm not sure what edition I will write the Hittites (or the Abosom, or Haida) for at the moment. My current plan is to wait to see what 2e has in store for us, and finish the Pantheons for whichever system we decide to go with. I have the research stockpiled and the majority of things written already though. A lot of the Pantheons are sort of Edition-Agnostic, origin myths sections, cultural notes, Pantheon relationships, who should be a Divine Parent and their basic packages, cosmology, that sort of stuff.
      Can you show me what you have written? I couldn't find them much on them yet

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
        Can you show me what you have written? I couldn't find them much on them yet
        Ah, I'm sorry Nicolas, but I couldn't bring myself to put it out before it has been completed in full. However, if you are having a hard time finding anything, here is a bigger collection of suggested readings for you.

        Hittite Myths by Harry A. Hoffner Jr. is your best bet for core primary documents. There are digitized copies of it floating around online, you could likely find copies through Google, but since it is really a more recent work and certainly not in the Public Domain, you know, Libraries and Amazon are a really good alternative. It is a collection of translations of ancient tablets in a super-dead language, Mr. Hoffner would have had to put an ungodly amount of time and effort into doing that. Translating texts is brutal, brain-breaking work, so, I'd always suggest really trying to get your hands on the text in a way that supports that massive amount of labor. Translating a single text can get you a PhD, and this is a big collection of them.

        Life and Society in the Hittite World and Kingdom of the Hittites by Trevor Bryce are also good starting points, as the name of the texts would suggest. I found that understanding the human society of the Hittites really helped with grasping the mythic texts.

        Writings from the Ancient World: Hittite Prayers - Volume 11 by Itamar Singer is a collection of, as you might guess from the title, prayers. I found them incredibly insightful in understanding the relationship that the Hittite Gods had with their mortals, and it really helped solidify the images of some of the Deities in my head. What I think it did the most is helped paint the picture of the 'presence' of the Gods, how physically active they were in the world, and how they were 'around' frequently. Hittite Birth Rituals by Gary Beckman is also quite good for this same reason.

        For the rest of the texts we used, sadly a bunch are in German, and a bunch are Journal Articles. If you can get access to articles, here are the bigger ones I found most useful. If you can't access them online, Libraries, Interlibrary Loans, and JSTOR's free three 'rentals' a week thing are good ways to get your hands on them.

        McMahon, Gregory: The Hittite State Cult of the Tutelary Deities. Assyriological Studies 25. Chicago 1991.

        Beckman, Gary. "The Tongue is a Bridge: Communication between Humans and Gods in Hittite Anatolia." Archiv Orientalni 67 (1999): 519-34.

        Bachvarova, Mary R. "Relations between God and Man in the Hurro-Hittite "Song of Release"." Journal of the American Oriental Society 125, no. 1 (2005): 45-58.

        Popko, Maciej. "Towards a history of Hittite religion." Orientalistische Literaturzeitung 90, no. 5 (September 1, 1995): 469-84.

        Ayali-Darshan, Noga. "The Role of Aštabi in the Song of Ullikummi and the Eastern Mediterranean “Failed God” Stories." The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago 73, no. 1 (April 2014): 95-103.

        Macqueen, J. G. "Hattian Mythology and Hittite Monarchy." Anatolian Studies 9 (1959): 171-88. doi:10.2307/3642338.

        Beckman, Gary. "The Religion of the Hittites." The Biblical Archaeologist 52, no. 2/3 (1989): 98-108. doi:10.2307/3210202.






        Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
        The Šiuneš, The Enduri, The Sgā’na Qeda’s, The Abosom, Lebor Óe In Dea, The Zemi, Nemetondevos: Revised, and Mysteries of the Otherworld.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Watcher View Post

          Dian Cecht is a rather interesting figure, one of the most important members of the tribe according to the Tuatha themselves, but we don't really see a whole lot of him being amazing. Generally, we have three myths about Dian Cecht, not counting small regional place-name stories since there is always a mountain of those.

          The first time we see Dian Cecht is the scene you mentioned where Nuada loses his hand to Sreng of the Mighty Blows, the champion of the Fir Bolg during the invasion of Ireland. Dian Cecht is described as being able to heal any wound except wounds of the brain, and wounds that hewed marrow. Nuada's missing hand falls into the second section, the hand cleaved off obviously cut through the bone, and thus it is outside the realm of Dian Cecht's skills as a physician. Nuada's hand does get replaced by his son Miach who uses a poem to regenerate the hand which infuriates Dian Cecht, leading him to murder his own son. There is some suspicion that this story is a far later medieval addition to the earlier medieval story since it makes pretty much zero sense, and seems to just to form some kind of symmetry with the rest of the text. Miach is a cool guy, he and his sister Airmed are awesome healers. As children they replace a man's eye with the eye of a cat after he had gone blind with a nip of surgery.

          The second time we see Dian Cecht is what tells us how powerful he is. Dian Cecht is brought in on the war councils against the Fomorians, and during the pitched battle between the Tuatha and the Fomorians, Dian Cecht is noted as being one of the two figures who are causing the victory of the Tuatha (the other being Goibniu the smith, one of the most powerful and important of the Pantheon) as he is preforming some pretty amazing magic. He has had several pools of water dug, and filled them with herbs. He is having the dead and dying Tuatha brought to him, tossing them into the water, and pulling them out, resurrected, and ready to continue the fight. The Fomorians rate Dian Cecht bringing back all of the Tuatha dead, and Goibniu forging an infinite amount of 100% accurate and 100% lethal spears to be their main problems. (They try to assassinate Goibniu for this but fail) This is the big instance of Dian Cecht showing off how powerful he is, really important bit, without him the Pantheon would have fallen.

          The third myth we see him in is a bit different. One of The Morrigu (I can't remember if the story is super clear who it is) is pregnant, and Dian Cecht works out that the kid has three snakes in his heart which will eat all of Ireland. So Dian Cecht carves the infant's heart out, kills the three serpents, and throws the corpses into a river causing the water to rage and boil with the venom. It's a smaller myth, it's actually from one of those place-name stories explaining the river, but it's interesting so I included it. I tend to hold this one against him since he is capable of bringing the dead back to life, but doesn't seem to care to try for the little kiddo. Just carves out his heart and leaves him dead.

          So, yeah. He totally does heal people, he can heal people from death. He just can't do cut marrow, or damage to the brain. Which, honestly, make sense for the early Irish. Those sorts of wounds would be the really bad ones that they would know are borderline impossible to heal. There's also some musing that the brain-cutting has something to do with the Head Cult, but it's sort of up in the air since we don't know what the whole headhunting thing was about in the first place. Very important guy though, he and Goibniu are probably the most important Tuatha in a war. The two of them are the big powerhouses if the Pantheon ever has to go to war against someone else. Sadly, both are dead! Plague got the pair of them.
          HI Watcher, I've got something to show you: this cool and cute video about Finn mc cumhail and I've got a new question
          https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=348s&v=gVHyXcAJ-Ks
          when I was watching this video,I though the magic was really cool,so I wanted to ask,what can you tell me about magical feats the Tuatha and the worshippers could do? Was there any magical power they had in common like the Greeks had their shapeshifting and the Yoruba had their possession?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
            HI Watcher, I've got something to show you: this cool and cute video about Finn mc cumhail and I've got a new question
            Oh man, the Finn and the Fianna. The Fianna bands of Ireland are really interesting as this method to essentially curb testosterone by getting all the young, landless men and sort of... shooing them away for a while. This is a great article on it, nicely summed up by Vox Hiberionacum as, "Finnian Cycle: Early Medieval Irish preventative measure against male testosterone." Great stuff, the Fianna bands are a really... interesting cultural thing. There is a description of a similar institution of the Italian Gauls with descriptions of rampant homosexual activities which I find interesting for some of the topics I look at with the Irish literatures.

            Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
            when I was watching this video,I though the magic was really cool,so I wanted to ask,what can you tell me about magical feats the Tuatha and the worshippers could do? Was there any magical power they had in common like the Greeks had their shapeshifting and the Yoruba had their possession?
            Sure, I can talk about this.

            The Tuatha have zero innate magical capacity, they're not Gods like that. Or, they may have been once upon a time, but by the time we get our eyes on them, they're not. If you think of the Theoi as essentially personifications of abstract notions, art, justice, the sun, the sea, thunder, death, darkness, the Tuatha are personifications of human cultural practices. They are The Smith, The Physician, The King, The Warrior, etc. Where Zeus is The Storm itself, Dian Cecht is the Physician, he is sort of the embodiment of the idea of what a Physician could be, he is that human activity turned up to 11.

            The best way I can show this is through a passage from Cath Maige Tuired, shamelessly borrowing the same passage my adviser used to explain this notion to the Undergraduates this week. For reference, check out lines 96 through 120 right here, it might be handy to check back and forth with it as you read along with me.

            So, Lugh is organizing war against the Fomori, and is going to "The Men of Rank," of the tribes. This might sound weird, but let me first break down that term. When they say, "Of Rank," this is a reference to the extreme social stratification we see with the Irish during this period. There are a few large 'groups' of society, the Warrior-Nobles, The Men of Art, the Artless-Freemen, and Slaves. Pretty much all of your legal rights, status, and everything about what you are, and are not allowed to do is based on where you fall within this system, and it gets really complicated since the Irish take this deadly seriously. When Lugh says, "The Men of Rank," what he means is, "Warrior-Nobles and Men of Art," people who hold rank within society, the important people. Then he has all of these individuals explain to him what they can contribute to the war effort.

            First, we see Goibniu say that he will be able to replace any swords or spears lost during battle, even if the battle lasts for seven years. He also says that any spear he forges will always hit its mark, and if it wounds, it will always be a killing blow. So, we can see this idea being established right off the bat, Goibniu is the smith, and he is essentially Divine-Tier smithing, he is able to forge new weapons and spears lightning-quick, for seven years straight, for the entirety of the tribes. From a later line (148) we learn that the collective deaths in the battle outnumber the Stars in the sky, grains of sand in the sea, flakes of snow, dewdrops on a lawn, hailstones, blades of grass, and the waves in the sea, so Goibniu is able to mass produce 100% accurate, 100% lethal weapons for seven years, for, if just basing the numbers off the stars in the sky, 1,000,000,000 people. He is the divine expression of the smith. (This is one of the reasons Goibniu is really important for the Pantheon, he is a really big figure, people really need to get to know him better!)

            Next we see Dian Cecht, who says that unless the head is removed, the spinal cord cut, or the brain membrane is cut, he will resurrect everyone who dies and have them ready to go back onto the battlefield in an instant. This might sound not super impressive, but this actually connects with what we know of early Irish medical practice through the medical law text Bretha Déin Chécht where the text describes twelve parts of the body that, if wounded, you are going to need a miracle (and have to pay your Physician handsomely) if you are going to recover from. These "Doors of the Soul," are the top of the head, the hollow of the occiput, the hollow of the temple, the apple of the throat, the hollow of the breast, the armpit, the breast-bone, the navel, the bend of the elbow, the hollow of the ham (the back/spine), the groin, the sole of the foot, and one we can't really identify since the original wording is weird. So, from this we can see that while Dian Cecht admits he can't deal with the head damage, and the spine damage, he can still perfectly heal 9/12 of the super-duper "you're going to die," wounds within the Irish system. So, from this we can see that Dian Cecht is the divine expression of the Physician.

            Credne, and Luchta, the brass-smith and the carpenter both are slightly less impressive, but in the battle they end up working along with Goibniu. They can supply Goibniu with rivets for the spears, hilts for the swords, rims for the shields, shields, and spearshafts for Goibniu's seven-year forging, for the billions of warriors. So, once again, these two are the Divine manifestations of the Brass-Smith and the Carpenter.

            Ogma is interesting since he isn't one of The Men of Art here. (He is in some other texts where he is also a poet) Here he is described as being a Champion or Hero, one of the Warrior-Nobility. He says that he will be a match for the King of the Fomori (there are a lot of them, but this probably means he can one-on-one Balor), can hold his own against 27 people at the same time, and will win a third of the battle for the Tribe. This might not sound fancy except for one-manning Balor apparently, but the numbers are not actually important here. 27 is 3 x 3 x 3, and the Irish have a thing about threes. So, consider this to be less of a literal number, and more of a vague idea of, "A Lot." This is also why he is winning a third of the battle, that 1/3 fraction is running with this theme. So, once again, we see Ogma as sort of the Divine reflection of The Warrior.

            Then we have The Morrigan, and she is super-duper vague because she's always vague and speaks in riddles. Generally, she is going to do stuff and that stuff sounds pretty spooky. Maybe she is saying that she will single-handedly slaughter any captives? Or maybe people who route the battlefield. It isn't clear, but she's doing something so let's just give her a pass since she's a special case always.

            Then Lugh looks to his sorcerers (who sometimes are named, but isn't in this translation it seems) who says that they will make the souls of the enemy visible so that they can be killed with ease, that they will take 2/3 (that three again) of their strength, and prevent then from peeing on their entire march to the battlefield and during it. This one is slightly harder for us to imagine since we don't really have a 'mundane' image of sorcerers, but this is some fancy magic going on. It's some big battle magic in the very least, and that no peeing thing might sound silly, but that is really a horrifying thing, don't knock that one.

            The Cupbearers, again, sometimes named but not here, will make the invading army thirsty, but deny them the ability to quench their thirst. This one is interesting since you probably wouldn't think to bring your Cupbearers to a war-council, but it is still in theme with what we are discussing. These are the height of being Cupbearers so much so that they essentially are controlling the thirst of the invading army just as they control the thirst of their king, the joy of drink, or the torture of thirst is their realm. They can decide who may drink and who may not, but on a massive scale.

            Then he looks to the druids, who again, sometimes get named but not here. They are going to rain fire from the sky, again, you know. It's magic, probably pretty big for druids though who tend not to be doing stuff as overtly combat-magic-y as this. So, in theory, these are sort of the 'best of the best,' just like we have seen with all the other professions.

            Coirpre mac Etain is going to bust out a Glam Dicenn which is essentially a poetic nuke, a dire satire that a Fili (one of the professional poets, the bards were the non-professional ones) would levy on someone, standing on one foot, with one eye shut, and a hand behind their back, with four druids assisting them. Coirpre here is doing that on a massive level, weaving this poetic magic over the entire invading army (again, remember that we are dealing with astronomical numbers) and that it will have the added effect of somehow weakening the enemy so they will offer no resistance to the slaughter. Again, we see that Coirpre here is doing the job of the Poet but on a massive, divine level.

            Be Chuille and Dianann, two witches (I want to check what the original word for this is eventually) who are going to flat out cause the very land itself to martial into an army to join the tribes. The trees, the stones, and the sods of the earth will take up arms and terrify the Fomori hosts as they march against them.

            And then The Dagda rounds us off with the really big boast that he will bring both his physical might, crushing bones beneath his club like hailstones under the hooves of horses, and some ill-defined wizardry. The Dagda, like The Morrigan, isn't really doing a specific job right now, but is just 'Up to Magic Stuff.' There is a whole theory that The Dagda is sort of an older, more archaic figure predating the extreme social stratification which might be why he never really gets a specific 'job' asides from, "He's good at everything."

            So, what we can see here is that the magic of the Irish Gods isn't really to do with them just being Gods. It's less of what they are, than what they do. Dian Cecht isn't the God of Healing or the God of Physicians, he is The Physician God. He is the Physician ramped up so far beyond the capabilities of mortals that he's just doing Magic stuff. Nuada isn't the God of Kingship, or the God of Kings, he was The King God, the best-of-the-best, the perfect, the noble.

            Unlike other Pantheons, the Tuatha don't really have major concepts of their Divinity. They don't do Possession like the Orisha, they don't have the myriad forms of the Theoi, or the like. They sometimes seem able to go unseen through the world, passing like shadows through the world, unseen and unheard until they want to be. But, that's not really unique, a lot of Gods do that. The Theoi do it a lot, just hanging around invisible. The Hittite Gods do it too. Some members of the Pantheon seem to be decent shapeshifters, but it seems to be a talent some of them have picked up rather than something they can all do.

            But, the Tuatha are what they are. They are physical embodiments of professions. This is also why Lugh is important. When Lugh says he is a Master of All Arts, he doesn't mean "Arts" like we understand it in English. It has nothing to do with artistic skill, it's Professions. Lugh claims to be trained in all professions, from being a cupbearer, to several sorts of smith, to a physician, to a warrior, poet, harper, everything. Lugh's sort of a God of Society through this, a God of Social Class. He probably had a whole thing with the Soviet Union, and is probably really weirdly old fashioned and judgmental about people's jobs when he is wandering around earth. He's the kind of person who would go, "You're a Garbage Man? You're barely even a person."

            I will mention again, however, that this is probably not how these figures were originally imagined. These texts are early medieval Christian reconstructions of a Pagan past, their Gods are now just people. They happen to be people who are literally above and beyond the capability of mortals doing wildly magic and amazing supernatural feats, but they're not the classical Indo-European style of "God of X," that we see elsewhere. The Morrigan and The Dagda are probably closer echoes to their original form.

            Also furthermore the idea of a unified Irish Pantheon is totally a medieval construction, little region of Ulster and little region of Munster would be venerating their own Deities. Probably a few big cross-over figures everyone agreed on like The Dagda and The Morrigan, but there would be a lot of local figures just like what we see in Britain and Gaul. Patron Deities of specific tribes, that sort of thing. We can see an echo of this with the oft-repeated phrase, "I Swear By The God My People Swear By," which has the suggestion that different peoples (Tuatha / tribes) swore their oaths to Deities specific to themselves.

            Edit: The Tuatha are like, "Class Issues," the Pantheon. There is a massive number of nameless, faceless members of the Tribes who are pushed to the background so the important people get to shine. It's my favorite angle to play up when you want to showcase the Pantheon being old fasioned, just really entrenched in their madly complex class system.
            Last edited by Watcher; 10-15-2017, 12:09 AM.


            Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
            The Šiuneš, The Enduri, The Sgā’na Qeda’s, The Abosom, Lebor Óe In Dea, The Zemi, Nemetondevos: Revised, and Mysteries of the Otherworld.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Watcher View Post

              Oh man, the Finn and the Fianna. The Fianna bands of Ireland are really interesting as this method to essentially curb testosterone by getting all the young, landless men and sort of... shooing them away for a while. This is a great article on it, nicely summed up by Vox Hiberionacum as, "Finnian Cycle: Early Medieval Irish preventative measure against male testosterone." Great stuff, the Fianna bands are a really... interesting cultural thing. There is a description of a similar institution of the Italian Gauls with descriptions of rampant homosexual activities which I find interesting for some of the topics I look at with the Irish literatures.



              Sure, I can talk about this.

              The Tuatha have zero innate magical capacity, they're not Gods like that. Or, they may have been once upon a time, but by the time we get our eyes on them, they're not. If you think of the Theoi as essentially personifications of abstract notions, art, justice, the sun, the sea, thunder, death, darkness, the Tuatha are personifications of human cultural practices. They are The Smith, The Physician, The King, The Warrior, etc. Where Zeus is The Storm itself, Dian Cecht is the Physician, he is sort of the embodiment of the idea of what a Physician could be, he is that human activity turned up to 11.

              The best way I can show this is through a passage from Cath Maige Tuired, shamelessly borrowing the same passage my adviser used to explain this notion to the Undergraduates this week. For reference, check out lines 96 through 120 right here, it might be handy to check back and forth with it as you read along with me.

              So, Lugh is organizing war against the Fomori, and is going to "The Men of Rank," of the tribes. This might sound weird, but let me first break down that term. When they say, "Of Rank," this is a reference to the extreme social stratification we see with the Irish during this period. There are a few large 'groups' of society, the Warrior-Nobles, The Men of Art, the Artless-Freemen, and Slaves. Pretty much all of your legal rights, status, and everything about what you are, and are not allowed to do is based on where you fall within this system, and it gets really complicated since the Irish take this deadly seriously. When Lugh says, "The Men of Rank," what he means is, "Warrior-Nobles and Men of Art," people who hold rank within society, the important people. Then he has all of these individuals explain to him what they can contribute to the war effort.

              First, we see Goibniu say that he will be able to replace any swords or spears lost during battle, even if the battle lasts for seven years. He also says that any spear he forges will always hit its mark, and if it wounds, it will always be a killing blow. So, we can see this idea being established right off the bat, Goibniu is the smith, and he is essentially Divine-Tier smithing, he is able to forge new weapons and spears lightning-quick, for seven years straight, for the entirety of the tribes. From a later line (148) we learn that the collective deaths in the battle outnumber the Stars in the sky, grains of sand in the sea, flakes of snow, dewdrops on a lawn, hailstones, blades of grass, and the waves in the sea, so Goibniu is able to mass produce 100% accurate, 100% lethal weapons for seven years, for, if just basing the numbers off the stars in the sky, 1,000,000,000 people. He is the divine expression of the smith. (This is one of the reasons Goibniu is really important for the Pantheon, he is a really big figure, people really need to get to know him better!)

              Next we see Dian Cecht, who says that unless the head is removed, the spinal cord cut, or the brain membrane is cut, he will resurrect everyone who dies and have them ready to go back onto the battlefield in an instant. This might sound not super impressive, but this actually connects with what we know of early Irish medical practice through the medical law text Bretha Déin Chécht where the text describes twelve parts of the body that, if wounded, you are going to need a miracle (and have to pay your Physician handsomely) if you are going to recover from. These "Doors of the Soul," are the top of the head, the hollow of the occiput, the hollow of the temple, the apple of the throat, the hollow of the breast, the armpit, the breast-bone, the navel, the bend of the elbow, the hollow of the ham (the back/spine), the groin, the sole of the foot, and one we can't really identify since the original wording is weird. So, from this we can see that while Dian Cecht admits he can't deal with the head damage, and the spine damage, he can still perfectly heal 9/12 of the super-duper "you're going to die," wounds within the Irish system. So, from this we can see that Dian Cecht is the divine expression of the Physician.

              Credne, and Luchta, the brass-smith and the carpenter both are slightly less impressive, but in the battle they end up working along with Goibniu. They can supply Goibniu with rivets for the spears, hilts for the swords, rims for the shields, shields, and spearshafts for Goibniu's seven-year forging, for the billions of warriors. So, once again, these two are the Divine manifestations of the Brass-Smith and the Carpenter.

              Ogma is interesting since he isn't one of The Men of Art here. (He is in some other texts where he is also a poet) Here he is described as being a Champion or Hero, one of the Warrior-Nobility. He says that he will be a match for the King of the Fomori (there are a lot of them, but this probably means he can one-on-one Balor), can hold his own against 27 people at the same time, and will win a third of the battle for the Tribe. This might not sound fancy except for one-manning Balor apparently, but the numbers are not actually important here. 27 is 3 x 3 x 3, and the Irish have a thing about threes. So, consider this to be less of a literal number, and more of a vague idea of, "A Lot." This is also why he is winning a third of the battle, that 1/3 fraction is running with this theme. So, once again, we see Ogma as sort of the Divine reflection of The Warrior.

              Then we have The Morrigan, and she is super-duper vague because she's always vague and speaks in riddles. Generally, she is going to do stuff and that stuff sounds pretty spooky. Maybe she is saying that she will single-handedly slaughter any captives? Or maybe people who route the battlefield. It isn't clear, but she's doing something so let's just give her a pass since she's a special case always.

              Then Lugh looks to his sorcerers (who sometimes are named, but isn't in this translation it seems) who says that they will make the souls of the enemy visible so that they can be killed with ease, that they will take 2/3 (that three again) of their strength, and prevent then from peeing on their entire march to the battlefield and during it. This one is slightly harder for us to imagine since we don't really have a 'mundane' image of sorcerers, but this is some fancy magic going on. It's some big battle magic in the very least, and that no peeing thing might sound silly, but that is really a horrifying thing, don't knock that one.

              The Cupbearers, again, sometimes named but not here, will make the invading army thirsty, but deny them the ability to quench their thirst. This one is interesting since you probably wouldn't think to bring your Cupbearers to a war-council, but it is still in theme with what we are discussing. These are the height of being Cupbearers so much so that they essentially are controlling the thirst of the invading army just as they control the thirst of their king, the joy of drink, or the torture of thirst is their realm. They can decide who may drink and who may not, but on a massive scale.

              Then he looks to the druids, who again, sometimes get named but not here. They are going to rain fire from the sky, again, you know. It's magic, probably pretty big for druids though who tend not to be doing stuff as overtly combat-magic-y as this. So, in theory, these are sort of the 'best of the best,' just like we have seen with all the other professions.

              Coirpre mac Etain is going to bust out a Glam Dicenn which is essentially a poetic nuke, a dire satire that a Fili (one of the professional poets, the bards were the non-professional ones) would levy on someone, standing on one foot, with one eye shut, and a hand behind their back, with four druids assisting them. Coirpre here is doing that on a massive level, weaving this poetic magic over the entire invading army (again, remember that we are dealing with astronomical numbers) and that it will have the added effect of somehow weakening the enemy so they will offer no resistance to the slaughter. Again, we see that Coirpre here is doing the job of the Poet but on a massive, divine level.

              Be Chuille and Dianann, two witches (I want to check what the original word for this is eventually) who are going to flat out cause the very land itself to martial into an army to join the tribes. The trees, the stones, and the sods of the earth will take up arms and terrify the Fomori hosts as they march against them.

              And then The Dagda rounds us off with the really big boast that he will bring both his physical might, crushing bones beneath his club like hailstones under the hooves of horses, and some ill-defined wizardry. The Dagda, like The Morrigan, isn't really doing a specific job right now, but is just 'Up to Magic Stuff.' There is a whole theory that The Dagda is sort of an older, more archaic figure predating the extreme social stratification which might be why he never really gets a specific 'job' asides from, "He's good at everything."

              So, what we can see here is that the magic of the Irish Gods isn't really to do with them just being Gods. It's less of what they are, than what they do. Dian Cecht isn't the God of Healing or the God of Physicians, he is The Physician God. He is the Physician ramped up so far beyond the capabilities of mortals that he's just doing Magic stuff. Nuada isn't the God of Kingship, or the God of Kings, he was The King God, the best-of-the-best, the perfect, the noble.

              Unlike other Pantheons, the Tuatha don't really have major concepts of their Divinity. They don't do Possession like the Orisha, they don't have the myriad forms of the Theoi, or the like. They sometimes seem able to go unseen through the world, passing like shadows through the world, unseen and unheard until they want to be. But, that's not really unique, a lot of Gods do that. The Theoi do it a lot, just hanging around invisible. The Hittite Gods do it too. Some members of the Pantheon seem to be decent shapeshifters, but it seems to be a talent some of them have picked up rather than something they can all do.

              But, the Tuatha are what they are. They are physical embodiments of professions. This is also why Lugh is important. When Lugh says he is a Master of All Arts, he doesn't mean "Arts" like we understand it in English. It has nothing to do with artistic skill, it's Professions. Lugh claims to be trained in all professions, from being a cupbearer, to several sorts of smith, to a physician, to a warrior, poet, harper, everything. Lugh's sort of a God of Society through this, a God of Social Class. He probably had a whole thing with the Soviet Union, and is probably really weirdly old fashioned and judgmental about people's jobs when he is wandering around earth. He's the kind of person who would go, "You're a Garbage Man? You're barely even a person."

              I will mention again, however, that this is probably not how these figures were originally imagined. These texts are early medieval Christian reconstructions of a Pagan past, their Gods are now just people. They happen to be people who are literally above and beyond the capability of mortals doing wildly magic and amazing supernatural feats, but they're not the classical Indo-European style of "God of X," that we see elsewhere. The Morrigan and The Dagda are probably closer echoes to their original form.

              Also furthermore the idea of a unified Irish Pantheon is totally a medieval construction, little region of Ulster and little region of Munster would be venerating their own Deities. Probably a few big cross-over figures everyone agreed on like The Dagda and The Morrigan, but there would be a lot of local figures just like what we see in Britain and Gaul. Patron Deities of specific tribes, that sort of thing. We can see an echo of this with the oft-repeated phrase, "I Swear By The God My People Swear By," which has the suggestion that different peoples (Tuatha / tribes) swore their oaths to Deities specific to themselves.

              Edit: The Tuatha are like, "Class Issues," the Pantheon. There is a massive number of nameless, faceless members of the Tribes who are pushed to the background so the important people get to shine. It's my favorite angle to play up when you want to showcase the Pantheon being old fasioned, just really entrenched in their madly complex class system.
              Jesus, now I understand why neall said other pantheon's think the Irish are crazy,does anyone eventually beats them?
              Edit:i Just remembered that that do get Beat,but How?
              Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 10-15-2017, 01:24 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                Jesus, now I understand why neall said other pantheon's think the Irish are crazy,does anyone eventually beats them?
                Oh yeah, the Tuatha are defeated, most of their 'Big Names' are dead, and the Pantheon is driven beneath the ground by the invasion of The Sons of Mil, the ancestors of the modern day Irish. Dian Cecht and Goibniu both die to a plague, The Dagda is killed by The Sons of Mil due to an old wound left by Cethlenn of the Crooked Teeth, Lugh is killed by three of The Dagda's grandsonssons, Nuada, Macha, and Ogma are killed by the Fomori.

                The rest of the Tuatha are defeated in a series of battles, both physical and magical, when the mortals invade Ireland. Manannan mac Lir arrives to form a pact between the invading Sons of Mil and the Tuatha de Danann, dividing Ireland in two. Mortals are given the surface, and the Tuatha retreat into the Sidhe mounds to live in halls beneath the earth. In theory, mortals are not supposed to mess with the Sidhe mounds, and the Tuatha are not supposed to mess with the surface, but both sides frequently meddle in each other's business, and hurt one and other.

                It's one of the reasons the Tuatha are probably seen as weird, they were slaughtered by their mortals, defeated, and driven beneath the ground. Other Pantheons look at that and might see an echo of their own Titanomachy, the defeat of elder beings and sealing them beneath the earth. Pantheons who have low opinions of mortals might also find this as evidence to the Tuatha's weakness as well. The Tuatha themselves have a love-hate-hate relationship with their mortals as well, they really want to reclaim Ireland, probably enslave the mortal population, but all of their major figures are, for the moment, dead.

                Edit: I will say though, that of all the Pantheons, the Tuatha are really good at fighting wars. They might not really be good at managing the day-to-day function of reality, but they can sure as hell fight a war.

                Edit#2: The exact method of the defeat of the Tuatha is sort of long winded, but Eriu, one of the three Queens of Ireland, offers a blessing in exchange for naming Ireland after her. More or less, the Sons of Mil manage to physically invade, and manage to coerce a deal out of the three Kings of Ireland. Generally, it's a slaughter couple with the Sons of Mil getting blessings, and some magical conflicts with each the Tuatha.
                Last edited by Watcher; 10-15-2017, 02:19 PM.


                Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                The Šiuneš, The Enduri, The Sgā’na Qeda’s, The Abosom, Lebor Óe In Dea, The Zemi, Nemetondevos: Revised, and Mysteries of the Otherworld.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                  HI Watcher, I've got something to show you: this cool and cute video about Finn mc cumhail and I've got a new question
                  https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=348s&v=gVHyXcAJ-Ks
                  Overly Sarcastic Productions are a lot of fun.


                  What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                  Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

                    Overly Sarcastic Productions are a lot of fun.
                    I know right? They're so cool

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                      HI Watcher, I've got something to show you: this cool and cute video about Finn mc cumhail and I've got a new question
                      https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=348s&v=gVHyXcAJ-Ks
                      A small thing I'm not sure if this comes from Victorian early attempts at translation or if it was the meaning in old Irish (Watcher?), but in modern Irish Fios/Feasa means "Occult knowledge", so it would be the "salmon of occult wisdom" or "salmon of mystic insight", implying Fionn gained little factual knowledge/learning from the salmon and more prophetic perception. That's how it's been interpreted for the last few hundred years at least.

                      You'll also see his name as Fionn or Finn, both are fine in English (but play different grammatical functions in Irish).

                      Also most of Fionn's stories remain untranslated unfortunately, especially ones from manuscripts or storytellers after 1600.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by An Fhuiseog View Post
                        A small thing I'm not sure if this comes from Victorian early attempts at translation or if it was the meaning in old Irish (Watcher?), but in modern Irish Fios/Feasa means "Occult knowledge", so it would be the "salmon of occult wisdom" or "salmon of mystic insight", implying Fionn gained little factual knowledge/learning from the salmon and more prophetic perception. That's how it's been interpreted for the last few hundred years at least.
                        I quickly tossed both terms into some of the word databases for Old Irish, can't see the elder versions at a glance oddly. I'm not sure where I could get my hands on a transcription of one of the texts, but I'll see if I can get my hands on an original version to track down the Old Irish terms that are used. Quickly delved into the Corpus of Electronic Texts to grab a translation of The Boyish Exploits of Finn. (Here if anyone would like them) The lines regarding the salmon are 18-20.

                        The way I have seen the idea of the salmon translated before is that it gives Poetic Wisdom, which itself isn't actually a good explanation since what we think of as poetic knowledge, and what the early Medieval Irish would consider poetic knowledge are wildly different. The Fili, the professional poets of early Ireland (not the Bards, the Bards come later, and at this point are primarily non-professional poets) were part poet, part lawyer, part historian, part satirist, part oracle. As time goes on, the Fili will break apart into several different classes, the Brehons, the Bards, etc. But, the important thing to know is that the Fili were believed to have some sort of oracular function.

                        So when Finn eats the Salmon of (Poetic) Wisdom, he gains all the talents and knowledge he needs to be a great Fili. Occasionally some of these are passive, other times for the more detailed information he needs to stick his thumb behind his teeth and do a bit of work. But, what this means is that he essentially has oracular capacities, he can't 'see' the future, but he can know what will happen, and he can know everything that has happened (the history, law, etc parts) as well as gaining great talent in poetry.

                        The modern idea of the term as "Occult Wisdom," is probably a slightly better way to explain than "Poetic Wisdom," but they both sort of miss the mark since it's dealing with a subject totally faded from Irish culture. It is both Poetic and Occult Wisdom, for those things were essentially interchangeable. If you are the greatest Fili, you're probably able to know a bunch of weird Occult stuff, it's part of your job.


                        Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                        The Šiuneš, The Enduri, The Sgā’na Qeda’s, The Abosom, Lebor Óe In Dea, The Zemi, Nemetondevos: Revised, and Mysteries of the Otherworld.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                          All the above
                          Very interesting, that element of Fios/Feasa is totally gone then, really it'd now be a word associated with a fortune teller, like with Tarot. File now just means "poet" with no nuance beyond its English equivalent and Bard is no longer a word.

                          I think the Filid had already separated into judges, historians and poets (although still with mystic elements) by the historical Old Irish period (~ 700 AD).

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by An Fhuiseog View Post
                            Very interesting, that element of Fios/Feasa is totally gone then, really it'd now be a word associated with a fortune teller, like with Tarot. File now just means "poet" with no nuance beyond its English equivalent and Bard is no longer a word.

                            I think the Filid had already separated into judges, historians and poets (although still with mystic elements) by the historical Old Irish period (~ 700 AD).
                            Interesting! I didn't realize the term had changed so heavily, that's really neat.

                            And you're totally right, by the start of the Old Irish period, the Filid had faded, and broken apart. They are more of an Iron Age than Early Medieval thing, but the idea of poets having an oracular function sort of lurks in the background here and there in the texts. Potentially a survival from older versions of the tales, but also potentially just sort of a cultural association that persists past the end of the Filid.

                            What I really find interesting is the idea that the Filid are the Irish version of the Vates that the Romans note as being present in Gaul. I have a soft spot for them since everyone forgets about the Vates, they are very much what people tend to imagine the Druids were. The Vates were the ones preforming sacrifices, were (probably) the priestly profession, etc.


                            Scion 2e Homebrew Projects:
                            The Šiuneš, The Enduri, The Sgā’na Qeda’s, The Abosom, Lebor Óe In Dea, The Zemi, Nemetondevos: Revised, and Mysteries of the Otherworld.

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                            • #74
                              Does anibody know if kronos,hyperion,oceanus and those other titans were ever worshipped? or were they always the bad guys that the the olympians defeated?
                              Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 10-17-2017, 04:17 PM.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                                So when Finn eats the Salmon of (Poetic) Wisdom, he gains all the talents and knowledge he needs to be a great Fili. Occasionally some of these are passive, other times for the more detailed information he needs to stick his thumb behind his teeth and do a bit of work. But, what this means is that he essentially has oracular capacities, he can't 'see' the future, but he can know what will happen, and he can know everything that has happened (the history, law, etc parts) as well as gaining great talent in poetry.
                                I guess having to suck your thumb to recall said knowledge is a better deal than all the stuff Odin subjected himself to for it. (I'd always presumed that when he was referred to as a "poet" it always meant both skald and rune wizard.)


                                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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