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  • atamajakki
    started a topic Suggested resources for mythology

    Suggested resources for mythology

    I know this isn't technically Scion-specific, but can anyone suggest interesting and reliable sources for learning about the mythologies of various cultures? There has to be something better than endless Wikipedia skimming, but I also know that the average book store is crammed full of 99% crap when it comes to reference, especially history.

    Any tips?

  • Jürgen Hubert
    replied
    Thread necromancy!

    If you are able to read German, I strongly recommend this Wikisource links list, which lists a massive number of publicly available German-language folklore tales and related mythology, and which I have been using for my own translation efforts.

    Leave a comment:


  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Watcher View Post
    Generally for the Greeks, the Protogenoi are physical parts of reality, be it the earth (Gaia), the sky (Ouranos), the sea (Pontos), the mountains (Ourea), where as the Titans are more anthropomorphic. A handy way to look at it might be that the further an entity is from the start of creation, the more anthropomorphic they are. The Protogenoi are minimally humanized, mostly just natural features of reality, where the Titans are more human-like, and the Theoi are almost exaggerations of humanity.
    That makes sense, thank you.

    I suspect I'm partially influenced here by George O'Conner's Olympians series, in which any time he draws the Titans, they tend to be these sort of nebulous proto-humans, and any time Gaia appears, it's just this voice coming up out of the earth. Now that you've pointed some of this stuff out, it also occurs to me that this may be part of why he decided to present Hestia, the oldest of the six original gods, as being somewhere between human looking and living flame.

    Leave a comment:


  • Watcher
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    For some reason, I always had the impression that the Titans were anthropomorphized embodiments of big natural forces or the like. Hyperion actually is the sun, Oceanus actually is the ocean, Kronos actually is time(?), and so on. But that may just be me being weird.
    The best answer for that is 'sometimes.' Being the physical 'thing' itself is more of what the Protogenoi (Ouranos, Gaia, Pontos, Ourea, etc) are up to than the Titans, but there is some weird points of overlap. Oceanus shares a name with the border-ocean of the world, even though he is only a Titan. That might be a Hades rules over Hades situation though?

    Generally for the Greeks, the Protogenoi are physical parts of reality, be it the earth (Gaia), the sky (Ouranos), the sea (Pontos), the mountains (Ourea), where as the Titans are more anthropomorphic. A handy way to look at it might be that the further an entity is from the start of creation, the more anthropomorphic they are. The Protogenoi are minimally humanized, mostly just natural features of reality, where the Titans are more human-like, and the Theoi are almost exaggerations of humanity.

    Leave a comment:


  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    For some reason, I always had the impression that the Titans were anthropomorphized embodiments of big natural forces or the like. Hyperion actually is the sun, Oceanus actually is the ocean, Kronos actually is time(?), and so on. But that may just be me being weird.

    Leave a comment:


  • Watcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
    Wait,the Argonauts were Real?
    Oh, no, sorry. I should have phrased that, "The Argonauts were credited with building a shrine to Hecate." The Argonauts are well into the realm of mythic figures.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nicolas Milioni
    replied
    Originally posted by Watcher View Post

    The Titans get worshiped sometimes, but not all of them. Not because some are 'too horrible to worship' or anything, more like because some of them were just so borderline 'meh' that they didn't attract any major cult presence. The biggest two who get worshiped are probably Cronus (as Saturn) and Rhea (as Rhea, Ops, and Cybele). Mnemosyne gets invoked at the start of some of the poetic epics, but that isn't worship. Themis is essentially the modern day Lady Justice, but having a bunch of statues isn't worship. She's just used as an Anthropomorphic Personification. The rest of The Twelve Titans don't really pick anything up in any major way as far as I know, they just sort of fade out of view. If they had any cult presence, it was so minor we have no reference to it. (Coeus, Crius, Hyperion, Iapetus, Theia, and Phoebe)

    For the other Titans, since there's a lot of them, I can't think of anyone who really gets worship asides from Hecate. She doesn't fight with Zeus though, she's one of the Titans who turns traitor, and allies with the young Gods. She has a cult presence with the Eleusinian Mysteries as the 'big' one, at least in my head. But she also has household shrines, crossroad shrines, and apparently some ones in Aegina, Sicyonia, Argolis, Thessaly, Samothrace, Delos, Rhodes, Lydia, Caria, Sicily, and the Argonauts build a shrine to her at one point. If you want to check out all the exact quotes regarding these, check this out. Helios (the other Traitor) has a smattering here and there, nothing major however. Rhodes was probably doing something with him though since The Colossus was a statue of himself.

    Oceanus and Tethys through him remain neutral during both the Titan's castration of Ouranos, and Zeus' war against the Titans, they just sort of hang out in the background. Foster Hera at one point I believe, helping raise her, possibly after she was vomited up I suppose? Neither of them pick up any worship from what I know however.

    The two biggest Titans who pick up worship are Cronus and Rhea however. Not so much with the Greeks, but the Romans have a really interesting time with the pair of them. Saturn (Roman Cronus) gets worshiped as a very important entity, crops, that sort of thing. Everyone loves the Gods of crops. The Saturnalia is a very big Roman festival which is devoted to him, you can see his features of fertility as well as the chaos, or 'lack of society' angles with it. Rhea is a huge mess though. She gets identified with two figures for the Romans, Ops, who is your general wealth, prosperity, fertility figure. And then Rhea also gets identified with Cybele, and that sort of gets out of hand. She is a major Motherhood entity, tons of festivals and whatnot, fertility, crops, all that. She, however, has a bit of a... chaotic side which made Rome rather uncomfortable. Self-castration, some Dionysus-style stuff, that causes the Romans to crack down on things and try to block off that style of worship of her.
    Oh Man,i was hoping at least Hyperion had a cult as the original Titan of Light and Lord of one of the four directions,i like his aesthethics you know? big,brawny dude who was the original Light of the cosmos,i'd love to play him in a movie.
    Wait,the Argonauts were Real?

    Leave a comment:


  • Watcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
    Does anibody know if kronos,hyperion,oceanus and those other titans were ever worshipped? or were they always the bad guys that the the olympians defeated?
    The Titans get worshiped sometimes, but not all of them. Not because some are 'too horrible to worship' or anything, more like because some of them were just so borderline 'meh' that they didn't attract any major cult presence. The biggest two who get worshiped are probably Cronus (as Saturn) and Rhea (as Rhea, Ops, and Cybele). Mnemosyne gets invoked at the start of some of the poetic epics, but that isn't worship. Themis is essentially the modern day Lady Justice, but having a bunch of statues isn't worship. She's just used as an Anthropomorphic Personification. The rest of The Twelve Titans don't really pick anything up in any major way as far as I know, they just sort of fade out of view. If they had any cult presence, it was so minor we have no reference to it. (Coeus, Crius, Hyperion, Iapetus, Theia, and Phoebe)

    For the other Titans, since there's a lot of them, I can't think of anyone who really gets worship asides from Hecate. She doesn't fight with Zeus though, she's one of the Titans who turns traitor, and allies with the young Gods. She has a cult presence with the Eleusinian Mysteries as the 'big' one, at least in my head. But she also has household shrines, crossroad shrines, and apparently some ones in Aegina, Sicyonia, Argolis, Thessaly, Samothrace, Delos, Rhodes, Lydia, Caria, Sicily, and the Argonauts build a shrine to her at one point. If you want to check out all the exact quotes regarding these, check this out. Helios (the other Traitor) has a smattering here and there, nothing major however. Rhodes was probably doing something with him though since The Colossus was a statue of himself.

    Oceanus and Tethys through him remain neutral during both the Titan's castration of Ouranos, and Zeus' war against the Titans, they just sort of hang out in the background. Foster Hera at one point I believe, helping raise her, possibly after she was vomited up I suppose? Neither of them pick up any worship from what I know however.

    The two biggest Titans who pick up worship are Cronus and Rhea however. Not so much with the Greeks, but the Romans have a really interesting time with the pair of them. Saturn (Roman Cronus) gets worshiped as a very important entity, crops, that sort of thing. Everyone loves the Gods of crops. The Saturnalia is a very big Roman festival which is devoted to him, you can see his features of fertility as well as the chaos, or 'lack of society' angles with it. Rhea is a huge mess though. She gets identified with two figures for the Romans, Ops, who is your general wealth, prosperity, fertility figure. And then Rhea also gets identified with Cybele, and that sort of gets out of hand. She is a major Motherhood entity, tons of festivals and whatnot, fertility, crops, all that. She, however, has a bit of a... chaotic side which made Rome rather uncomfortable. Self-castration, some Dionysus-style stuff, that causes the Romans to crack down on things and try to block off that style of worship of her.

    Leave a comment:


  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Watcher View Post

    So when Finn eats the Salmon of (Poetic) Wisdom, he gains all the talents and knowledge he needs to be a great Fili. Occasionally some of these are passive, other times for the more detailed information he needs to stick his thumb behind his teeth and do a bit of work. But, what this means is that he essentially has oracular capacities, he can't 'see' the future, but he can know what will happen, and he can know everything that has happened (the history, law, etc parts) as well as gaining great talent in poetry.
    I guess having to suck your thumb to recall said knowledge is a better deal than all the stuff Odin subjected himself to for it. (I'd always presumed that when he was referred to as a "poet" it always meant both skald and rune wizard.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Nicolas Milioni
    replied
    Does anibody know if kronos,hyperion,oceanus and those other titans were ever worshipped? or were they always the bad guys that the the olympians defeated?
    Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 10-17-2017, 04:17 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Watcher
    replied
    Originally posted by An Fhuiseog View Post
    Very interesting, that element of Fios/Feasa is totally gone then, really it'd now be a word associated with a fortune teller, like with Tarot. File now just means "poet" with no nuance beyond its English equivalent and Bard is no longer a word.

    I think the Filid had already separated into judges, historians and poets (although still with mystic elements) by the historical Old Irish period (~ 700 AD).
    Interesting! I didn't realize the term had changed so heavily, that's really neat.

    And you're totally right, by the start of the Old Irish period, the Filid had faded, and broken apart. They are more of an Iron Age than Early Medieval thing, but the idea of poets having an oracular function sort of lurks in the background here and there in the texts. Potentially a survival from older versions of the tales, but also potentially just sort of a cultural association that persists past the end of the Filid.

    What I really find interesting is the idea that the Filid are the Irish version of the Vates that the Romans note as being present in Gaul. I have a soft spot for them since everyone forgets about the Vates, they are very much what people tend to imagine the Druids were. The Vates were the ones preforming sacrifices, were (probably) the priestly profession, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • An Fhuiseog
    replied
    Originally posted by Watcher View Post
    All the above
    Very interesting, that element of Fios/Feasa is totally gone then, really it'd now be a word associated with a fortune teller, like with Tarot. File now just means "poet" with no nuance beyond its English equivalent and Bard is no longer a word.

    I think the Filid had already separated into judges, historians and poets (although still with mystic elements) by the historical Old Irish period (~ 700 AD).

    Leave a comment:


  • Watcher
    replied
    Originally posted by An Fhuiseog View Post
    A small thing I'm not sure if this comes from Victorian early attempts at translation or if it was the meaning in old Irish (Watcher?), but in modern Irish Fios/Feasa means "Occult knowledge", so it would be the "salmon of occult wisdom" or "salmon of mystic insight", implying Fionn gained little factual knowledge/learning from the salmon and more prophetic perception. That's how it's been interpreted for the last few hundred years at least.
    I quickly tossed both terms into some of the word databases for Old Irish, can't see the elder versions at a glance oddly. I'm not sure where I could get my hands on a transcription of one of the texts, but I'll see if I can get my hands on an original version to track down the Old Irish terms that are used. Quickly delved into the Corpus of Electronic Texts to grab a translation of The Boyish Exploits of Finn. (Here if anyone would like them) The lines regarding the salmon are 18-20.

    The way I have seen the idea of the salmon translated before is that it gives Poetic Wisdom, which itself isn't actually a good explanation since what we think of as poetic knowledge, and what the early Medieval Irish would consider poetic knowledge are wildly different. The Fili, the professional poets of early Ireland (not the Bards, the Bards come later, and at this point are primarily non-professional poets) were part poet, part lawyer, part historian, part satirist, part oracle. As time goes on, the Fili will break apart into several different classes, the Brehons, the Bards, etc. But, the important thing to know is that the Fili were believed to have some sort of oracular function.

    So when Finn eats the Salmon of (Poetic) Wisdom, he gains all the talents and knowledge he needs to be a great Fili. Occasionally some of these are passive, other times for the more detailed information he needs to stick his thumb behind his teeth and do a bit of work. But, what this means is that he essentially has oracular capacities, he can't 'see' the future, but he can know what will happen, and he can know everything that has happened (the history, law, etc parts) as well as gaining great talent in poetry.

    The modern idea of the term as "Occult Wisdom," is probably a slightly better way to explain than "Poetic Wisdom," but they both sort of miss the mark since it's dealing with a subject totally faded from Irish culture. It is both Poetic and Occult Wisdom, for those things were essentially interchangeable. If you are the greatest Fili, you're probably able to know a bunch of weird Occult stuff, it's part of your job.

    Leave a comment:


  • An Fhuiseog
    replied
    Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
    HI Watcher, I've got something to show you: this cool and cute video about Finn mc cumhail and I've got a new question
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=348s&v=gVHyXcAJ-Ks
    A small thing I'm not sure if this comes from Victorian early attempts at translation or if it was the meaning in old Irish (Watcher?), but in modern Irish Fios/Feasa means "Occult knowledge", so it would be the "salmon of occult wisdom" or "salmon of mystic insight", implying Fionn gained little factual knowledge/learning from the salmon and more prophetic perception. That's how it's been interpreted for the last few hundred years at least.

    You'll also see his name as Fionn or Finn, both are fine in English (but play different grammatical functions in Irish).

    Also most of Fionn's stories remain untranslated unfortunately, especially ones from manuscripts or storytellers after 1600.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nicolas Milioni
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

    Overly Sarcastic Productions are a lot of fun.
    I know right? They're so cool

    Leave a comment:

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