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Brainstorming for an Angelic Pantheon

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  • #61
    Originally posted by YeOfLittleFaith View Post

    Wait, how is an Angelic Scion player character associated with a contemporary form of the catholic inquisition made in the World specifically to oppose threats to humanity the same as a Neo-Nazi character? I am legitimately and unfortunately confused.

    I can't speak for her, but I will try to offer my interpretation?

    I believe she's comparing making the Catholic Inquisition into a friendly organization funded by the Church (which is, presumably, okay with pagan gods and their get at this point, otherwise it'd be fairly disruptive to the rest of the party) to someone stating "I sure liked the Nazi uniform/aesthetic, it would be cool if I played an SS Character, but nowadays the SS is less focused on burning Jewish/LGBT people, and more concerned with being Task Force Valkyrie." Based on the history the Inquisition had with mass murder.

    Again, not trying to call people who are Catholic Nazi's, just trying to interpret what she said.
    Last edited by Solana; 10-28-2016, 04:01 PM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by YeOfLittleFaith View Post

      Wait, how is an Angelic Scion player character associated with a contemporary form of the catholic inquisition made in the World specifically to oppose threats to humanity the same as a Neo-Nazi character? I am legitimately and unfortunately confused.
      The Inquisition was little more than a bunch of either delusional or psychotic roving thugs who targeted the weak and powerless, often to steal their things.

      Recasting them as the good guys protecting humanity is a bit like recasting the Thuggee cult as a heroic Robin Hood-esque revolutionary outfit defending the common folk against the oppressive Raj.
      Last edited by Jachra; 10-28-2016, 03:09 PM.


      We don't allow mages to cast spells, since this is the most unbalancing rule of all.

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      • #63
        I wouldn't say they were delusional or psychotic. Their behavior was much too directed and focused to be mentally ill in that particular way.

        I mean using those terms as a way to indicate someone is evil is bad enough, but they don't really mean what they're often purported to mean.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Jachra View Post
          The Inquisition was little more than a bunch of either delusional or psychotic roving thugs who targeted the weak and powerless, often to steal their things.

          Recasting them as the good guys protecting humanity is a bit like recasting the Thuggee cult as a heroic Robin Hood-esque revolutionary outfit defending the common folk against the oppressive Raj.
          I just gave you a response in the thread you mentioned but since it's turning into a thing here, I'll give the same response.

          A theme of the Christian religion is redemption. Taking something bad and making it good again. To say the character can't have his character concept because the organization did something bad hundred of years of ago is ignoring that theme.

          An excellent example of the theme at work from the Bible itself is when Saul, a man who hunted down early Christians so they could be executed by the Romans for their religious beliefs, had an experience with God, took on the name Paul, and went on to write many of the books in the New Testament.

          EDIT: I feel its better to let the player have what he wants and preserve a theme of the religion rather than deny the character concept and ignore one of the better aspects of the religion I'm trying to portray.
          Last edited by Demac; 10-28-2016, 04:48 PM.


          I have created a character creation tool. The thread talking about the tool can be found here.

          I like the Mesoamerican look.

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          • #65
            Solana; Jachra: I was wondering if that was roughly the perspective at play. I understand the opposition now, but I wonder if the point of view isn't a bit lopsided.

            Had Demac just said "the Catholic Inquisition" I'd find it questionable in the same breath, but the suggestion is of a hypothetically reformed Inquisition organized in a world where titanspawn and monsters are a tangible threat. It's true that the institution was historically a thinly veiled excuse for tyrannical and inhuman practices exercised to benefit those in charge, but it's not that organization that is wanted there, even if they would use the same name due to the connection to the Catholic Church and the ideological basis of resisting heresy; it happens that the heresy these people care about fighting is inhuman beings poised to be a danger to mankind, and that they would as a mission statement actually care.

            The church as an organ does not stand for the same values as when the real world Inquisition was formed either. I think it is burdensome to claim it's precisely the same as casting a genuinely damnable group in a good light when the subject of the matter differs starkly in function but identifies themselves by an common ideological function that was horribly misused in the past.

            Such a group would never be free of ambiguity regardless, because that is the nature of things and it would indeed be stranger if it was. How far would their nominal acceptance of other faiths in the face of priorities go if the correct circumstances to supplant them were presented? Cults of the pantheons all over the world presumably seek dominance over those which hail different gods even if their attentions are mostly turned to greater enemies. That the modern Inquisition could come into conflict with foreign Scions and their allies seems a feature inherent to the setting and not a bug.

            I can obviously only speak for myself, but the mentioned concept doesn't strike me as distasteful. Of course, there's not much arguing to have over how people feel (unless they're somehow objecting to unalienable human rights).
            Last edited by YeOfLittleFaith; 10-28-2016, 05:02 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Demac View Post

              I just gave you a response in the thread you mentioned but since it's turning into a thing here, I'll give the same response.

              A theme of the Christian religion is redemption. Taking something bad and making it good again. To say the character can't have his character concept because the organization did something bad hundred of years of ago is ignoring that theme.

              An excellent example of the theme at work from the Bible itself is when Saul, a man who hunted down early Christians so they could be executed by the Romans for their religious beliefs, had an experience with God, took on the name Paul, and went on to write many of the books in the New Testament.

              EDIT: I feel its better to let the player have what he wants and preserve a theme of the religion rather than deny the character concept and ignore one of the better aspects of the religion I'm trying to portray.
              Paul of Tarsus: Also oppressed women who wanted to teach within the Church. Not a fantastic example.

              Again, redemption is one thing, but the Inquisition's bad press isn't going to go away any more than did the Nazis.

              A person can be redeemed, Demac. An organization isn't a person.

              If you want a Catholic organization to hunt down monsters, I suggest picking something other than the torture maniacs, or making up a new one.
              Last edited by Jachra; 10-28-2016, 05:03 PM.


              We don't allow mages to cast spells, since this is the most unbalancing rule of all.

              Comment


              • #67
                oWoD had its own Shadow Inquisition, which cared much less about, say, burning Jews and pagans than it did fighting the very real threat (in that setting) posed by the supernatural. I could very easily see Orders Militant being created in the World not to shield pilgrims from Saracen threats, but rather monsters and possibly Scions of the Mesopotamian Pantheon.

                I do think a name less tainted than Inquisition may be in order, likely just the Knights Something.


                Just call me Lex.

                Female pronouns for me, please.

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                • #68
                  As far as the name goes, I agree Inquisition is not the best for positive awareness.

                  Knights Custodian?

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by YeOfLittleFaith View Post
                    As far as the name goes, I agree Inquisition is not the best for positive awareness.

                    Knights Custodian?
                    Perfect, I love it.

                    People don't use the Knightly orders enough. They know about the Templars and that's it.


                    We don't allow mages to cast spells, since this is the most unbalancing rule of all.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by YeOfLittleFaith View Post
                      Solana; Jachra: I was wondering if that was roughly the perspective at play. I understand the opposition now, but I wonder if the point of view isn't a bit lopsided.

                      Had Demac just said "the Catholic Inquisition" I'd find it questionable in the same breath, but the suggestion is of a hypothetically reformed Inquisition organized in a world where titanspawn and monsters are a tangible threat. It's true that the institution was historically a thinly veiled excuse for tyrannical and inhuman practices exercised to benefit those in charge, but it's not that organization that is wanted there, even if they would use the same name due to the connection to the Catholic Church and the ideological basis of resisting heresy; it happens that the heresy these people care about fighting is inhuman beings poised to be a danger to mankind, and that they would as a mission statement actually care.

                      The church as an organ does not stand for the same values as when the real world Inquisition was formed either. I think it is burdensome to claim it's precisely the same as casting a genuinely damnable group in a good light when the subject of the matter differs starkly in function but identifies themselves by an common ideological function that was horribly misused in the past.

                      Such a group would never be free of ambiguity regardless, because that is the nature of things and it would indeed be stranger if it was. How far would their nominal acceptance of other faiths in the face of priorities go if the correct circumstances to supplant them were presented? Cults of the pantheons all over the world presumably seek dominance over those which hail different gods even if their attentions are mostly turned to greater enemies. That the modern Inquisition could come into conflict with foreign Scions and their allies seems a feature inherent to the setting and not a bug.

                      I can obviously only speak for myself, but the mentioned concept doesn't strike me as distasteful. Of course, there's not much arguing to have over how people feel (unless they're somehow objecting to unalienable human rights).
                      It's not something I could run because of how uncomfortable I am with that sort of thing. To answer for my own purposes? It would offend me if things were portrayed as: "Well the inquisition wasn't evil in Scion, because witches and monsters were actually real." On the surface it's an entirely valid point - there are monsters and sorcerers and witches in Scion. Obviously things would have gone a bit differently. It's a sensitive issue though, because if it were done that way it's almost a form of denial, which makes me very uncomfortable.

                      But I didn't initially say anything because I assumed that Demac is planning on owning that dark history, and it seems my faith was rewarded.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Solana View Post

                        It's not something I could run because of how uncomfortable I am with that sort of thing. To answer for my own purposes? It would offend me if things were portrayed as: "Well the inquisition wasn't evil in Scion, because witches and monsters were actually real." On the surface it's an entirely valid point - there are monsters and sorcerers and witches in Scion. Obviously things would have gone a bit differently. It's a sensitive issue though, because if it were done that way it's almost a form of denial, which makes me very uncomfortable.

                        But I didn't initially say anything because I assumed that Demac is planning on owning that dark history, and it seems my faith was rewarded.
                        Glad to not disappoint. Yeah, I'm not in the business of glossing over the atrocities of the past or making apologies for the groups that committed them. I do understand why people would be uncomfortable dealing with something like that in their games, but honestly, it is something that my player would have fun with. If I was going to write this up for a larger group, I would probably include the inquisition along with some other options so that people could have more play options. But as is, they player specifically wanted to explore what it would mean to be a member of the Inquisition in The World so the options at that point are basically to say "no, because the Inquisition did horrible things unlike all those other religions... oh wait....", say "Yes, I'll let you play a member of a group that is currently engaged in horrible acts", or take the route I described where the Inquisition as having done all those things, but for the last 200 years the or so has changed how it operates to help people.
                        ‚Äč


                        I have created a character creation tool. The thread talking about the tool can be found here.

                        I like the Mesoamerican look.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Solana View Post
                          It's not something I could run because of how uncomfortable I am with that sort of thing. To answer for my own purposes? It would offend me if things were portrayed as: "Well the inquisition wasn't evil in Scion, because witches and monsters were actually real." On the surface it's an entirely valid point - there are monsters and sorcerers and witches in Scion. Obviously things would have gone a bit differently. It's a sensitive issue though, because if it were done that way it's almost a form of denial, which makes me very uncomfortable.

                          But I didn't initially say anything because I assumed that Demac is planning on owning that dark history, and it seems my faith was rewarded.
                          Of course, yes. I was only saying as much as I did because I didn't think anything about the suggestion was meant to justify the historical precedents of the inquisition or present itself as apologist of them. Denying or whitewashing the atrocities of the past is not something anyone here wants to do.
                          Last edited by YeOfLittleFaith; 10-28-2016, 11:29 PM.

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