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  • Rules Preview Discussion

    So as part of the KS there's a rules preview:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7F...BPQmdIY2M/view


    Anyone able to parse how this will play out in a game? I feel quite burnt as 1E felt great, but then the rules & traits really under-delivered. It looks mostly like good things to me, but I'm curious if there's more critical feedback I should be aware of. I want to back the KS, but am a bit wary.

  • #2
    Psst.

    forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/scion/975383-preview-documents-discussion-thread


    Just call me Lex.

    Female pronouns for me, please.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Tytalus View Post
      So as part of the KS there's a rules preview:

      https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7F...BPQmdIY2M/view


      Anyone able to parse how this will play out in a game? I feel quite burnt as 1E felt great, but then the rules & traits really under-delivered. It looks mostly like good things to me, but I'm curious if there's more critical feedback I should be aware of. I want to back the KS, but am a bit wary.
      Some friends of mine and I took the rules to try and pound out a mortal-tier game. So far, working out pretty damn good.


      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

        Some friends of mine and I took the rules to try and pound out a mortal-tier game. So far, working out pretty damn good.
        Are you able to elaborate a bit more? Any potential pitfalls? How well does combat play out with buying stunts with successes? What about the new attributes? How does only getting a success on a 8,9 or 10 "feel" in play?

        Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
        Psst.

        forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/scion/975383-preview-documents-discussion-thread
        Yeah no. That is a great thread for people talking about Purviews and the finer details of just how well the Pantheons captured the mythology and fanfiction of all things. I got sold on that stuff in 1E. I'd like a more detailed discussion of the rules and gameplay mechanisms.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Tytalus View Post
          Are you able to elaborate a bit more?
          We've only had a couple of sessions, but I'll see what I can do.

          Any potential pitfalls?
          Lack of concrete social systems may hurt you, but mostly we've had our Socialite just batting eyelashes at people and rolling well enough that the GM said "Right, putty in your hands"

          How well does combat play out with buying stunts with successes?
          We've had all of two combats, one with my wrestler versus a trucker, and one with two social characters. My character ended up grabbing the trucker and flipping him with the bonus successes, and the two social characters were sparring one-another, but they couldn't generate enough successes to beat one-another's defense so that was basically a slap fight.

          What about the new attributes?
          ... They're attributes? The tricky part is keeping the range chart handy for what you use to attack at what distance.

          How does only getting a success on a 8,9 or 10 "feel" in play?
          Not as bad as you might imagine. The bonus successes given by Edges (we're using the older rules for now, when apparently Edges are less common among mortals because we lack concrete rules for that) helps deal with the increased TN. And related: Cascading 10s are almost always fun.

          Yeah no. That is a great thread for people talking about Purviews and the finer details of just how well the Pantheons captured the mythology and fanfiction of all things. I got sold on that stuff in 1E. I'd like a more detailed discussion of the rules and gameplay mechanisms
          Speaking as the guy who made that thread in question, I don't recall saying "Don't talk about the mechanics". :P


          Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
            We've only had a couple of sessions, but I'll see what I can do.


            Lack of concrete social systems may hurt you, but mostly we've had our Socialite just batting eyelashes at people and rolling well enough that the GM said "Right, putty in your hands"


            We've had all of two combats, one with my wrestler versus a trucker, and one with two social characters. My character ended up grabbing the trucker and flipping him with the bonus successes, and the two social characters were sparring one-another, but they couldn't generate enough successes to beat one-another's defense so that was basically a slap fight.


            ... They're attributes? The tricky part is keeping the range chart handy for what you use to attack at what distance.


            Not as bad as you might imagine. The bonus successes given by Edges (we're using the older rules for now, when apparently Edges are less common among mortals because we lack concrete rules for that) helps deal with the increased TN. And related: Cascading 10s are almost always fun.


            Speaking as the guy who made that thread in question, I don't recall saying "Don't talk about the mechanics". :P
            Thanks for the feedback. Apologies, I didn't connect it that you were the one who made that thread. I tried reading it for rules feedback and it was pretty barren of that kind of commentary. Just endless nerd whinging about the pantheons not being perfect.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tytalus View Post
              Just endless nerd whinging about the pantheons not being perfect.
              Hey, that kind of nerdity is what got a bunch of people to put this system together.

              Also, it would have been simple to pop into the thread and say "Hey, drifting away from the fluff... Anybody want to talk about the new system? Thoughts on it?"

              Edit: Still, it's understandable to make a dedicated Mechanics Discussion thread.
              Last edited by Kyman201; 10-12-2016, 11:52 PM.


              Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                Hey, that kind of nerdity is what got a bunch of people to put this system together.

                Also, it would have been simple to pop into the thread and say "Hey, drifting away from the fluff... Anybody want to talk about the new system? Thoughts on it?"

                Edit: Still, it's understandable to make a dedicated Mechanics Discussion thread.
                One thing I've noticed is that once a thread gets large, not everyone actually will go back and read through it, people talk about what the last few posts are about more often than not. There was clearly far more interest in talking pantheons than talking rules.

                I know we don't have the full version yet to review, but I loved the premise of the game, bought all the books... And then once I actually tried to play the game was fairly horrified just how many outright game balance problems there were. Some purviews were great, some bad, some mixed... The pantheon specific purviews were completely out of whack, the terrible scaling issues... No social defense abilities, just social offense... etc etc. Many hours of hacking together my own systems and modifying other people's house rules on the internet, printing out scads of rules rewrites, only for my players to go "Dude, this is way to much work for you, and we're really not enjoying the system that much. Why don't we just go play pathfinder?"

                Scion 1E was the first time I just about threw my some of my RPG books in the garbage can. I really like reading mythology, and loved the premise of the game. I do want to support the KS, but I really want to not waste my money again. To go into a forum about the preview documents, only to discover people picking over how accurate the mythologies were represented is exceedingly frustrating.
                Last edited by Tytalus; 10-13-2016, 12:07 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tytalus View Post
                  Scion 1E was the first time I just about threw my some of my RPG books in the garbage can. I really like reading mythology, and loved the premise of the game. I do want to support the KS, but I really want to not waste my money again. To go into a forum about the preview documents, only to discover people picking over how accurate the mythologies were represented is exceedingly frustrating.
                  Fair. Scion 1E was, to put it diplomatically, borked. I should know, I've run unmodified 1E games. *Shudders*

                  No, I think you can spare like twenty bucks to get something worthwhile. It'd be GREAT if we had more concrete examples of the social system, for example, but from what we've seen so far it looks like a MUCH more elegant system than 1E was.


                  Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                  • #10
                    I hope it's as good as Intimacies are in Exalted. They're a contender for my favorite social system in one of these games.


                    Leetsepeak's Ex3 Homebrew Hub - Hub of homebrew for Exalted 3rd Edition that I've made.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tytalus View Post
                      Are you able to elaborate a bit more? Any potential pitfalls? How well does combat play out with buying stunts with successes? What about the new attributes? How does only getting a success on a 8,9 or 10 "feel" in play?
                      Being the one who pounded out the workable rules, I can comment on this too.

                      Pitfalls: Working out character creation and advancement. If I were to redo it I'd tweak the starting stats and xp costs, make specialties work differently (maybe granting double-9s instead of 1e), and make Edges generally more expensive (Enhancements are really good!). Also the little we have on the actual Attributes and Skills isn't much, and sometimes adjudicating which to use to make pools is slightly tricky.

                      Combat: Haven't done much. Ky described our experience accurately. In a real fight, however, even the two of us who have shit dice pools for attack would be getting Momentum on each failed hit, building up to a big successful attacks every so often. I look forward to seeing how a serious fight plays out. I do worry having so many Enhancements flying around (even 3e seems like a huge deal at Origins levels!) will bork things, but we'll see.

                      I did have to basically rewrite the health and damage rules (basically to match how FATE does it), but I think that's the intention anyway.

                      Attributes: They aren't really new to me, having played a bunch of nWoD. They work well enough.

                      The success on a 8-10 with 10-again is also fine to me, since it's the same as nWoD. Having Enhancements boost the final success total helps a ton. Also Stunts creating Enhancements for later in the scene.

                      Other things: The social system. I have a very simple system with Bonds, Attitude, and Scope, where your Bond with a person determines your current Attitude toward them, and the Scope of your influence must be less than or equal to the Attitude or it fails. The best part to me, however, is that anyone, PC or NPC, can just decide not to accept influence. If a NPC shrugs it off, the PC gets Momentum. If the PC accepts the influence, the PC gets Momentum. So I don't need a lot of the more fiddly rules Exalted 3 has, since there's nice carrots for accepting the influence already in place.

                      More often our GM just RPs out social stuff, with the occasional dice roll when there's some question of it an NPC will go along with what we're saying, skipping the detailed stuff. Which is fine with me.

                      Investigation system: Ripped heavily from GUMSHOE.

                      Crafting system: Ripped almost directly from Apocalypse World.


                      Book of the Emerald Circle
                      Custom Sidereal Charms
                      Expanded Sidereal Linguistics

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tytalus View Post
                        To go into a forum about the preview documents, only to discover people picking over how accurate the mythologies were represented is exceedingly frustrating.
                        As the primary selling point of the entire game, it's perfectly reasonable for people to be talking about that. Especially since the fanbase of Scion 1E almost universally had major issues with the RAW rules.

                        But there's also nothing wrong with having one thread focused on talking about the mythology, and another focused on talking about the rules. One of the biggest rules concerns for me, based on what we have seen in the previews, is that combat is going to be super slow. Like 4E D&D slow.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                          One of the biggest rules concerns for me, based on what we have seen in the previews, is that combat is going to be super slow. Like 4E D&D slow.
                          Funny, since I've been think combat is going to be pretty fast and brutal, at least if any Enhancements are in play. And also that in my experience D&D4 is not even close to the slowest combat I've played.


                          Book of the Emerald Circle
                          Custom Sidereal Charms
                          Expanded Sidereal Linguistics

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                            One of the biggest rules concerns for me, based on what we have seen in the previews, is that combat is going to be super slow. Like 4E D&D slow.
                            Echoing Reagent here. The heck kind of 4E D&D have you been playing? I've seen some SLOW combat. 4E can be pretty quick.

                            Assuming your players have like a quarter idea of what they're doing and don't spend the time between their actions just playing on their phone. Like, guys, use your time when it's not your turn to plan your next turn. It's not rocket science.


                            Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Limited Reagent View Post
                              Funny, since I've been think combat is going to be pretty fast and brutal, at least if any Enhancements are in play.
                              How do you figure? I'm honestly eager to discuss it.

                              Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                              The heck kind of 4E D&D have you been playing? I've seen some SLOW combat. 4E can be pretty quick.
                              It's one of the most common criticisms about 4E D&D. You're some of the first people I've heard who did not have that problem. I think the longest 4E combat I had was about 18 hours across two days, but that was an intentionally epic battle. Your average combat on budget could easily last two hours, especially if you were Leader heavy. We had to use some of the common system hacks (1/2 HP for enemies, +1/2 Level Damage for enemies) to make combat faster.

                              But it wasn't my intention to distract the thread with 4E D&D discussion.

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