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  • #16
    Originally posted by Incendax View Post
    How do you figure? I'm honestly eager to discuss it.
    Well one thing that makes it faster?

    There's no "To Hit" and "Damage" separate rolls. There's just one Fight roll exchanged against a static defense, and the extra successes are applied as damage.


    Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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    • #17
      Maybe i'm just slow, maybe i have some difficult with english but... (just to remember, italian scion fan)

      How Enhancements should work?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ElanConnor View Post
        Maybe i'm just slow, maybe i have some difficult with english but... (just to remember, italian scion fan)

        How Enhancements should work?
        Enhancements are automatic successes. Though they usually only apply if your initial roll yields any successes. You could have Enhancement (4) on a roll (such as through the Dream Quest boon of the Dodaem purview previewed earlier this week), but if your initial roll has no successes, then you can't apply that Enhancement to your roll.


        Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Incendax View Post
          How do you figure? I'm honestly eager to discuss it.
          Alright. First I'll preface that I am making some assumptions about how damage and health work, since the early access doc was unclear about it. Basically, like FATE: Stress can't be split between Vitality boxes, Stress rolls upwards if there's no empty boxes, and if you take Stress and have no boxes to fill or Injuries to take, you're Taken Out.

          First, Ky's right: No damage roll. There's not many calculations to make at all. Also, the more you miss the more Momentum you get, which will help you later land a big blow. And anyone can Concede a fight, so GMs can just decide if an enemy has taken enough to just end it.

          On the mechanical side, let's take a look at the Professional archetype from the early access doc. Probably the staple antagonist for Origin level. 2 Stress, 2 Defense. These guys are taken out in 3 hits max. If they take Injuries, that'll just make it easier to land hits (assuming Injury Complications also reduce Defense), though it will drag out the fight. Injuries are optional though, so GMs don't have to have their NPCs take Injuries if they want the fight to be faster.

          Now, getting 3 successes on an attack roll isn't super trivial when you have a 1/3 chance of success per die. That'd take about 9 dice, but the variance is pretty high and a lucky roll could cause Injury right off the bat. Now, if we add in Enhancements, things get brutal. Just 2e and a dice pool of 6 would mean you're averaging 2 successes over defense, enough to take the Professional out, even taking Injuries into account, after four hits. A lucky hit or two would lessen that.

          And then there's Momentum. Go into a fight with 6 Momentum, 6 dice, and 2e from a friend's Stunt, and you're suddenly averaging 6 successes on that one roll. A lucky hit could push that to 8, at which point there's nothing our Professional could do to stop getting Taken Out.

          Originally posted by Incendax View Post
          It's one of the most common criticisms about 4E D&D. You're some of the first people I've heard who did not have that problem.
          I didn't say D&D4 combats were particularly quick, just that other games have had much longer combats in my experience. :P It's been a while by IIRC combats took something between 30 minutes and 2 hours back in the day. I've had Exalted combats go much, much longer than that, for example. I can't imagine having one D&D4 fight taking 18 hours, that's just crazy.


          Book of the Emerald Circle
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          Expanded Sidereal Linguistics

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post

            Enhancements are automatic successes. Though they usually only apply if your initial roll yields any successes. You could have Enhancement (4) on a roll (such as through the Dream Quest boon of the Dodaem purview previewed earlier this week), but if your initial roll has no successes, then you can't apply that Enhancement to your roll.


            So Enhancement (4) means 4 automatic succes, but they will work only if i have done at least 1 success on the dice pool, otherwise no success, right?

            i like it.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Limited Reagent View Post
              Alright. First I'll preface that I am making some assumptions about how damage and health work, since the early access doc was unclear about it. Basically, like FATE: Stress can't be split between Vitality boxes, Stress rolls upwards if there's no empty boxes, and if you take Stress and have no boxes to fill or Injuries to take, you're Taken Out.
              Right now Stress doesn't roll upwards, and you are not taken out by large amounts of damage. Only if your vitality boxes are filled. The bad guys definitely can concede, but otherwise you have to fill every single one of their boxes to take them out. I am really hoping that changes in the future, but that's the way it works right now.

              Originally posted by Limited Reagent View Post
              First, Ky's right: No damage roll. There's not many calculations to make at all.
              I think most Scion 1st Edition houserules use something like this already.

              Originally posted by Limited Reagent View Post
              On the mechanical side, let's take a look at the Professional archetype from the early access doc. Probably the staple antagonist for Origin level. 2 Stress, 2 Defense. These guys are taken out in 3 hits max. If they take Injuries, that'll just make it easier to land hits (assuming Injury Complications also reduce Defense), though it will drag out the fight. Injuries are optional though, so GMs don't have to have their NPCs take Injuries if they want the fight to be faster.

              Now, getting 3 successes on an attack roll isn't super trivial when you have a 1/3 chance of success per die. That'd take about 9 dice, but the variance is pretty high and a lucky roll could cause Injury right off the bat. Now, if we add in Enhancements, things get brutal. Just 2e and a dice pool of 6 would mean you're averaging 2 successes over defense, enough to take the Professional out, even taking Injuries into account, after four hits. A lucky hit or two would lessen that.
              In order to take the professional out we would need to get exactly 1 success and 2 successes. Anything more than that vanishes into the ether. So we actually don't want too many enhancements or we overshoot those target numbers. If the professional is taking some hits, he can take some injury complications to possibly lower his defense and make it even harder for people to hit his two stress levels. And since stress doesn't roll upwards, you can spend round after around hoping to get a 1 or a 2 and not getting it.

              And that's just one guy! Imagine a group of 4-5 bad guys (the same number as your average band).

              Originally posted by Limited Reagent View Post
              And then there's Momentum. Go into a fight with 6 Momentum, 6 dice, and 2e from a friend's Stunt, and you're suddenly averaging 6 successes on that one roll. A lucky hit could push that to 8, at which point there's nothing our Professional could do to stop getting Taken Out.
              There's no benefit to scoring really high. Right now, that 8 just vanishes against our Professional because it is not a 1 or a 2. But even if it didn't vanish, it would fill the 2 and leave the 1. A nice storyteller might say the bad guys concedes, but he doesn't have to.

              So yeah, looking forward to revisions.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                In order to take the professional out we would need to get exactly 1 success and 2 successes. Anything more than that vanishes into the ether. So we actually don't want too many enhancements or we overshoot those target numbers. If the professional is taking some hits, he can take some injury complications to possibly lower his defense and make it even harder for people to hit his two stress levels. And since stress doesn't roll upwards, you can spend round after around hoping to get a 1 or a 2 and not getting it.
                Dunno where you're getting that. I think the rules are if they can't soak all the Stress then they take an injury complication.

                And if a player tried to argue that the attack roll that got 4 threshold successes doesn't apply to them because they only have a 1 through 3 stress box, I'd just give them a look and rule that they can take an injury or be out of the fight.


                Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                  Dunno where you're getting that. I think the rules are if they can't soak all the Stress then they take an injury complication.
                  It says 'You can avoid accumulating Stress by instead taking an Injury Complication with a rating equal to the amount of Stress you would have taken.'
                  Originally posted by Kyman201 View Post
                  And if a player tried to argue that the attack roll that got 4 threshold successes doesn't apply to them because they only have a 1 through 3 stress box, I'd just give them a look and rule that they can take an injury or be out of the fight.
                  I don't think we're talking about House Rules here. The actual rules don't say what happens in that situation. So who knows?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                    Right now Stress doesn't roll upwards, and you are not taken out by large amounts of damage. Only if your vitality boxes are filled. The bad guys definitely can concede, but otherwise you have to fill every single one of their boxes to take them out. I am really hoping that changes in the future, but that's the way it works right now.
                    Okay, yeah, but the way it is right now is pretty goofy, and I'm pretty sure Neall has mentioned that Stress is supposed to roll into later Vitality boxes. I assumed what I did because it makes sense. It's what looks like the intentions of the rules to me, even though technically, as of what we have now, you're right: combat is bad and slow. I'm not even going to discuss how it works right now, because it's pretty nonsensical.

                    And we know it's being rewritten.

                    Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                    I think most Scion 1st Edition houserules use something like this already.
                    I never played Scion 1e.


                    Book of the Emerald Circle
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                    Expanded Sidereal Linguistics

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Limited Reagent View Post
                      Okay, yeah, but the way it is right now is pretty goofy, and I'm pretty sure Neall has mentioned that Stress is supposed to roll into later Vitality boxes. I assumed what I did because it makes sense. It's what looks like the intentions of the rules to me, even though technically, as of what we have now, you're right: combat is bad and slow. I'm not even going to discuss how it works right now, because it's pretty nonsensical.

                      And we know it's being rewritten.
                      Sounds good. Fingers crossed and hoping for the best!

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