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What do we want from a new Demon the Fallen edition?

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  • What do we want from a new Demon the Fallen edition?

    Demon is a fun game but it has a lot, A LOT, of gaps that show up if you play the game for a while. For instance we need some way to make faith harvested past your bodies limit useful. The Faustians are said to be accumulating Faith enough to rebuild the world, but really if you can only hold handfuls of faith points you don't get much benefit from accumulating pacts in the double digits.

    Also I feel we need more on how Lore was used to create CREATION, yet the Lore the players have are so limited. They need to have some discussion on things like perhaps if Angels were around they would have unfettered lore and could use their powers more like Mage Spheres. Rituals for instance actually work fantastically and can do things like create whole pocket realms, but the problem is they were invented during the war with Heaven. So maybe they they should retcon that so that Rituals are what the Angels used to create the world.

    I feel they need to through out some of the stuff in the Demon Companion, some of it is great, but for instance they need to remove the whole Werewolves travel through the Underworld. Instead you can just use the Umbra like they do, you can just have the Umbra be a Mystery to Demons.

    I would also like some discussion in the books about how mightier demons can grow their human bodies past their limits.

    And it would be fun to have more prop books, Days of Fire was more a Time of Judgement Propbook then a Demon the Fallen Prop book.

    I would also like room for more Lores. So yes Humanity Lore was invented after the Fall, and Earthbound have invented debased reality warping lore. So it would be cool for some demons to try to really push what lore can do. Like I feel Light wasn't really the best lore for illusions, that feels like it could have been its own lore like a Fantasy Lore or something.

    And have either the Realm Lore be a method to tap into non Underworld Dimensions like the Umbra or make another Lore for it.

    I would also like more discussions on things like the Fallen talking with other Supernaturals. The interaction I would most like to see is something like a Devil Talking with one of the Hsien. Or really any of the Fallen interacting with the Middle Kingdom. One of the Devourers interacting with a Bahari Lilith Cult? Or the Reapers interacting with the Dark Kingdoms! Talking with the Ferrymen, the Amenti, the Jade Kingdom!

    Basically I want the game to open up. As it is it is a very fun game but discourages opening up and pushing the system.

    Hell it would be fun to have a book on a possible future setting if the Fallen managed to completely Shatter the Seal of the Abyss and the full Demon host returns to Earth and Conquers it. Pressing the other Supernatural to either Submit or pressed into the hinterlands as they can't compete with over 2 million Demons of various levels of cosmos bending puissiance.


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Agreed on Rituals needing to have always been in play. Choirs of Angels forged the universe together.

    One thing I'd have liked if the gameline continued would have been more exploration of human vs angelic/demonic identity, and then continuity of character if you move into a new body (and mechanics for that).


    Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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    • #3
      Oh yeah! That was a major confusion point! A lot of people just suggested that the first human a demon possesses after an age in the Abyss ingrains in the demons identity.

      I would like some sort of discussion on the possibility that some Demon possessions results in the entity identifying itself more as the human then the demon.

      But I would like it perhaps options as well as solid rules on how Demons who make multiple trips to the abyss, or just been in positions to hop to new bodies after danger, start to fluxuate personalitywise, as you are flayed of permanent Faith from dying...

      And they mention certain auspicious bodies capable of holding progressively higher levels of Demons, what if a Player character winds up in such a body?


      The impression I got from first reading the corebook was that Demons possessing a human after eons in the abyss are very unpredictable because you can get situations where Hevaash the Master of Slaughter and Eater of Woe winds up in the body of a serial killer and the sheer shock of going from the abyss to humanity can result in a penitent Demon as even a wicked human can dampen the strange infinite torment and react in weird ways. Or conversely an already penitent demon after spending ages in the abyss and winding up in a pious saintly mortal can break and become an angry confused sociopath.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        I really want a new edition to be informed pretty heavily by the Devil's Due book they put out for the Dark Ages line; it had a great tone, some awesome material on mortal thralls and antagonists both, and an alternate character creation option (the name escapes me now) but it creates a merger of Demon and mortal host rather than being an outright possession.


        Just call me Lex.

        Female pronouns for me, please.

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        • #5
          Clarification of Devil's Due and the evolution of Demonic society, if we're talking a new edition and not just a D20. In that case, we move from a society that - at the oldest - had existed from five years to one that's existed for nearly 20, with steadily expanding numbers and developing infrastructure.

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          • #6
            I need to get Devil's Due and Read it!
            Originally posted by loomer View Post
            Clarification of Devil's Due and the evolution of Demonic society, if we're talking a new edition and not just a D20. In that case, we move from a society that - at the oldest - had existed from five years to one that's existed for nearly 20, with steadily expanding numbers and developing infrastructure.
            Well not necessarily, the 20 year books were first professed as not really a new a edition but a celebration of all editions, but really they have evolved into new editions. Mage 20 solidly has changed the setting adding in a new faction and having some groups juggle membership, and Changeling never got a revised and it very much sounds like C20 is their version of a Deluxe Revised.

            So I'm thinking something like that. So Demon may have options of Demons just emerging to them being around about twenty years.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
              I need to get Devil's Due and Read it!


              Well not necessarily, the 20 year books were first professed as not really a new a edition but a celebration of all editions, but really they have evolved into new editions. Mage 20 solidly has changed the setting adding in a new faction and having some groups juggle membership, and Changeling never got a revised and it very much sounds like C20 is their version of a Deluxe Revised.

              So I'm thinking something like that. So Demon may have options of Demons just emerging to them being around about twenty years.
              That's why I prefaced my remark with if we're doing a new edition as opposed to a D20. Any new edition set in the modern era will need to accomodate those changes as central to the game, not as the annoying 'here's a bunch of non-commital options' approach of M20 or, presumably, of a D20.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
                I really want a new edition to be informed pretty heavily by the Devil's Due book they put out for the Dark Ages line; it had a great tone, some awesome material on mortal thralls and antagonists both, and an alternate character creation option (the name escapes me now) but it creates a merger of Demon and mortal host rather than being an outright possession.

                You're talking about the Earthbound who use Lucifer's ritual to permanently possess a host? It a was a nice twist to make more playable characters in the era, and create a hint for those "in the know" with the setting to suspect Lucifer was intentionally leading the Earthbound who took the option to get humanized by the experience, while not making it over so as to not introduce "Promethean Hero" Lucifer into the Dark Ages setting where he'd be out of theme.


                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                • #9
                  I'd like to see new lores invented after the fallen broke free of the abyss, how they reacted once they realized there are other realms of existence other than the dead lands, more items of power (created both before and after the fall), more fallen of note, more information on prefall creation, and more apocalyptic form options.

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                  • #10
                    While I could just post my "This is what I think should be in D20" list again, this is an interesting idea. Just to throw a few things out:

                    - Exploration of the demon VS human psyche. You essentially kicked someone's soul out while retaining their mind, that should do more than "I remember things of the Fall and also my new life".
                    - More of a focus on an individual demon's personal sins.
                    - Having more to face than the Earthbound and summoners/demon hunters/the Inquisition. Sure, angels can still be gone but the whole kind VS kind thing has already been done in other cWoD games.
                    - Fallen taking interest in the other game lines and exploring the impact they had on these lines.
                    - Far more modular true forms.
                    - Being able to do more with your Thralls.
                    - Better rules for Diablorie.
                    - Elaboration of the link between Lucifer and the Imbued.
                    - Change Infernal Courts so that they're not the Camarilla who don't burn in the sun.
                    - Better art.

                    As for the new lores thing... well, what would they be? I'd say something like:

                    - Devils: Lore that affects the bond between human and demon, as well as similar possessions or corruptions.
                    - Scourges: Lore that lets them interact with artificial life like clones or even artificial intelligence.
                    - Malefactors: Lore that lets them interact with modern technology, making them alike (but also not like) Demon: The Descent. High-torment version: Cyberdemons!
                    - Fiends: Lore that takes the "Patterns" thing to its logical conclusion and can reduce order to chaos. Or just mind control.
                    - Defilers: Lore that lets them interact with the powers of mages and hunters and the like, making them stronger, weaker or even redirecting or cancelling them altogether.
                    - Devourers: Lore that lets them interact with things like werewolves.
                    - Slayers: Lore that lets them interact with supernatural undead.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Beriorn View Post
                      - Elaboration of the link between Lucifer and the Imbued.
                      There might not actually be one, since he's ignorant of their origin in some presentations, such as the ToJ capstone book.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                        There might not actually be one, since he's ignorant of their origin in some presentations, such as the ToJ capstone book.
                        In the prologue it seems that way, yes, but in the Paradise Won scenario they're actually his doing.

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