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My Dark god beats yours!:Who is the most evil one in WoD

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  • My Dark god beats yours!:Who is the most evil one in WoD

    The Wyrm, Azura, The Grandma, The Weaver, Belial the Great Beast, God, The K'llashaa etc etc...

    Theres so many cosmic deities in the world of darkness that i wonder, who is the true evil?. and who could beat the living crap out of the other


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  • #2
    Frankly I don't consider the Wyrm, the Weaver or Grandma evil. The former two are suffering from their own brands of insanity that's twisted what they were originally meant to be. And Grandma... well Grandma from the start does not understand the concept of life outside of herself. She's devouring the universe which she thinks is lifeless so that she can create her own universe with her creations in it. If the players manage to reach her and explain, she's actually shocked by what's she's doing.

    The K'llashaa, or at least the beings they serve, are utterly alien to humans and human morality. Does that make them evil? By human standards, yeah. But they are not human. They do not have human morality. They have their own morality, whatever it may be.

    God is God. He's bloodthirsty tyrant, a well-meaning asshole, a frantic being trying to keep universe together with ever-diminishing time and choices, the sinister puppetmaster that delights as the universe dances to his tune and suffers for him or all the above at the same time.


    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
      Frankly I don't consider the Wyrm, the Weaver or Grandma evil. The former two are suffering from their own brands of insanity that's twisted what they were originally meant to be.
      Uh... they get a pass on being evil just because they are insane? What. Most of the beings on this list are not capable of being 'sane' in any real sense of the word. I say judge these creatures by their actions, not by whatever unknowable state their mind might be be in.

      I say the Wyrm is the worst, mainly based on scope. It torments and corrupts across the world and beyond. Whole spirits and realms writhe in its cancerous grasp.

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      • #4
        Belial is barely on the level of the others in that list. Sure, he's extremely powerful but he's powerful on a level that player characters can hypothetically deal with thim. The others? Not so much.

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        • #5
          Evil is a human-level thing based on free will. The human-level agents of the Weaver and Wyrm are evil (whether you are talking about Technocrats and Drones or Nephandi and Fomori) because they have a choice in their actions.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
            Evil is a human-level thing based on free will. The human-level agents of the Weaver and Wyrm are evil (whether you are talking about Technocrats and Drones or Nephandi and Fomori) because they have a choice in their actions.
            Technocrats aren't agents of the Weaver. Not like, say, Shinzui Industries or DNA, at any rate.

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            • #7
              Actually, according to the Book of the Weaver, they are even though they do not realize it. They are the perfect agents because their actions weaken the Wyld and Gaia, as well as strengthening the Weaver, and they do not request that much from the Weaver in exchange for their service because they actually think that they are creating a better world for humanity.

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              • #8
                I'm convinced that Gaia is secretly the worst of all. I just can't accept Garou excuses enough to believe otherwise.

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                • #9
                  I imagine that some people are convinced that the mother of all is the worst of all. They must live in a dark world if they think that all life is basically evil. I do wonder what their hope for the future is though? That the Singularity will come and that our robot overlords will be merciful when they turn us into lubricant?

                  Gain is Nature. Nature is neutral. Now, I know that some people have some prejudice against the Garou based on their previous posts, but I really do not see what is so awful about trying to preserve the biosphere from collapse. If the biosphere collapses, humanity dies along with everything else, so I think the Garou are doing humanity a favor by trying to save Gaia. And blaming modern Garou for the Wars of Rage are a bit like blaming modern Mongolians for Genghis Khan.

                  The Garou try to save Gaia by sabotaging Pentex, but they try to change the behaviors of other human groups through a mixture of education, political action, and whistleblowing. While the Red Talons want to be more violent, they are the smallest tribe and will likely go extinct soon enough because they are unwilling to use the human world to save their Wolf Kinfolk. Compare that to the tactics of the Ratkin, who are planning of killing ninety percent of humanity through famine, plague, and war.

                  The Garou are the friends of humanity when compared to the Ratkin and are the unsung saviors of humanity when compared to the rest of the supernatural creatures, who seem to seek to eat and/or enslave humanity. The Garou just want a stable biosphere on Earth so they can spend their lives interacting with the Middle Umbra. Heck, I imagine the majority of the Garou would be thrilled if they could get away with letting their Kinfolk deal with humanity on their behalf.

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                  • #10
                    The Children seem pretty gosh-darn evil. They seemingly predate Vampirism, and yet they're sort of like Vampires since sunlight kills them. And waking them up or keeping them down is the prime motivation of two thirds of the Balli, and that makes them directly responsible for a tonne of evil shit.

                    The Grand Maw isn't knowingly evil, but in terms of cosmic destruction she trumps everything else in the universe, since she is the patient force of undoing which will even devour the Wyrm once it's finished eating everything else.

                    Satan, oddly enough, seems like a swell guy. And I actually quite like Lilith. Caine is a brooding idiot somewhat akin to an angry manchild, but he isn't evil.

                    Kupala is A Bit Evil. He kind of corrupts everything he touches, hence the Tzimisce obsession with gore and ugliness.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh View Post
                      I'm convinced that Gaia is secretly the worst of all. I just can't accept Garou excuses enough to believe otherwise.
                      See, even if some Garou go batshit and say that they're doing an atrocity in Gaia's name, Gaia didn't actually tell them to do it. They're just bringing human religious fervor into the mix, which is something that you actively have to do, rather than just having it fall out. Gaia doesn't really say or do much on a scale that anyone not also a cosmic being would see or comprehend. Even if she's lower than the Triat, that's still incomprehensibly huge, and her avatar would need and avatar and its avatar would need an avatar to talk to people in vague terms, which doesn't really happen very often.

                      Now, when it comes to the purpose of some Fera, you might disagree that humans need to be kept less populated and away from various landmasses, but there are a lot of other living things, and Werewolf seems to be an awful lot about intrinsic rights to existence, so there's no reason that human life is more necessary than other forms of life. That incredibly broad scale is closer to the one on which Gaia would operate.

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                      • #12
                        Exactly. To the Fera, it would be worth killing millions of people in Asia who are trying to develop tiger habitat or pouch tiger penile bones because tigers have as much right to exist as humans. The same perspective could be applied in Africa, Australia, Europe, North America, South America, etc. While they might regret killing millions of humans, humans are millions of times more common than wild tigers.

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                        • #13
                          Gaia is some bullshit. The Ratkin are a thing. Their task is literally to prune humanity using pestilence. Same goes for the Werehyenas, whose job is literally the most ableist thing ever; they kill the weak to keep 'the herd' strong. Oh, but they don't kill those under a year old. Great, good to know that those with congenital heart defects in Africa are 100% safe until they're 366 days old.

                          RAW, Gaia is basically a Fascist Utilitarian monster who has no place representing the will of the Earth. Also, if you read the origin of the Werefoxes she comes across as an angry bitch who enslaves (can't think of a better word for it, but enslaves is the wrong word) an entire species for basically no reason; she practically admits that there is no purpose to making the foxes into a Fera line.

                          Furthermore, the War of Rage was pointed in the wrong direction. The Wolves should have obliterated the Hyenas and the Rats.

                          EDIT: Okay now I want to play a Kinfolk who realises that Gaia worship is bullshit, and becomes a Skin Dancer to spite her, going on to start a group whose sole aim is the eradication of Fera whose given task doesn't line up with humanitarianism.
                          Last edited by 11twiggins; 02-21-2017, 07:49 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                            RAW, Gaia is basically a Fascist Utilitarian monster who has no place representing the will of the Earth.
                            You have a very odd (imo) view of Werewolf and Gaia.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                              Gaia is some bullshit. The Ratkin are a thing. Their task is literally to prune humanity using pestilence.
                              Again, because there are living things other than humans around. They also need space, so humans crowding them out would be bad. Also, they stypically start by eating excess food stores, rather than with death plagues.

                              Same goes for the Werehyenas, whose job is literally the most ableist thing ever; they kill the weak to keep 'the herd' strong. Oh, but they don't kill those under a year old. Great, good to know that those with congenital heart defects in Africa are 100% safe until they're 366 days old.
                              Their purpose in 1e, 2e, and W20 is odd, because it's basically to do what wild predators do anyway - the narration of the Ajaba section of W20 CB dresses it up, but they're basically just taking down anything that they can to acquire food, and one can't ever really fault wild predators for taking what they can get. Note that in Revised, they were more like the Garou in a different location.

                              RAW, Gaia is basically a Fascist Utilitarian monster who has no place representing the will of the Earth.
                              Gaia's nature is to grow monsters as the solution to problems. Also, Gaia is larger than you're thinking.

                              Also, if you read the origin of the Werefoxes she comes across as an angry bitch who enslaves (can't think of a better word for it, but enslaves is the wrong word) an entire species for basically no reason; she practically admits that there is no purpose to making the foxes into a Fera line.
                              You're taking what a fox said at face value? (closes eyes, grins extra-wide)

                              Furthermore, the War of Rage was pointed in the wrong direction. The Wolves should have obliterated the Hyenas and the Rats.
                              The Wars of Rage were never Her intention to begin with.

                              EDIT: Okay now I want to play a Kinfolk who realises that Gaia worship
                              Again, it's not actually worship, and no one really pays Chiminage directly to Gaia, because She's huge and what the hell are you going to do or offer to influence that? Reverence is given, rites are performed, and the closest that most werewolves get to Gaia is to have a good relationship with one of the Incarnae, who intercede more directly on their behalf.

                              is bullshit, and becomes a Skin Dancer to spite her, going on to start a group whose sole aim is the eradication of Fera whose given task doesn't line up with humanitarianism.
                              You seem to be missing the essential point. I iterated it on the first comment of this post; why should humans get to dictate how the world should be or what's worthy of existing? The answer for Werewolf is "they shouldn't, and things have ended up terrible for it.". Humans determining what should exist only gets you things that are beneficial to a short-sighted humanity with only its interest in mind. Then, by and large, they'll skip on everything and leave them to die, or make a grievous miscalculation and fuck up royally in the choosing, because they haven't had billions of years to figure out life.

                              Of course, those characters can and do still exist. They're just not going to be portrayed in the right, even by standards outside the game, because they're still advocating genocide.

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