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My Dark god beats yours!:Who is the most evil one in WoD

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

    Wow, what a wounderful delight... Life should've been a Nirvana in the caves... Maybe that's why life expectancy were about 35 years... Yep, it should've been a divine existence
    Statistical nitpick: it was only an early death if you aggregated child mortality with adult mortality, which is not a realistic outcome or expression of numbers. Anyone who made it to adulthood actually managed to live about as long as most people live today... which might not be all that long. People can die young from no apparent cause, even today, or even die in spite of being treated for a condition that was worsened through sedentary life.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by idpersona View Post
      So I think it's pretty interesting that you seem to praise Queen Ananasa, while describing (wrongly) Gaia as basically functioning exactly how Ananasa does.

      Serious question: What goals do you think Gaia is supposed to have?


      Since she's dying, yea I suppose she could have done a better job. But that is mostly because of the backstory of the setting to set up the "end of times" Apocalypse . The Garou fucked up in pre-history and they are just now getting to see the ramifications of their actions. Not that any of the current Garou had anything to do with it.


      So you reconcile it by ignoring the setting as written. I suppose there is no arguing against that kind of logic.


      But you are faulting the setting for her not being omnipotent? I suppose I don't understand your intent.


      Except when they don't? Like the Kumo?


      They're about as numerous as the Garou. Since the Gaoru are presented as having about half the number they need for their tasks, this isn't terribly impressive. I'm not sure why you think they are so numerous.


      And lacking real regeneration. And arguably, free will.

      This is obviously a matter of opinion. I certainly disagree with you. The Ananasi are cool. But they aren't any "better" designed than any of the other Breeds.


      The Ananasi's whole deal is: do what the Queen says because she has a plan and knows better than any one of us.

      Plenty of others have decided the Wyrm isn't "the" enemy. Ratkin as a race (the actual most numerous Changing Breed) combat the Weaver, and only fight the Wyrm if it gets in their way. In any case, in setting, the Wyrm is the entity that's bringing out the Apocalypse. So there is that.
      1: I'm saying that Ananasa seems to have a coherent goal, while Gaia is all over the place.

      1.5: Her goal is a balanced biosphere and a stable existence of the diversity of the earth, balance in the umbral wilds and all of her children doing their proper jobs and getting along. Ideal end-game would be something like the Beast Courts, globally, with the world being in a tranquil and primordial state. Obviously she HAS to fail for WTA to be a thing. Please can she fail in realistic and understandable ways, not "whoops, I guess the angry pack-hunting bastards killed all of the others, maybe I should have taken steps to stop that or make it less likely".

      2: That's cool, and I'm happy with the game being a "Gaia is dying" setting, but the set-up for that needs to make sense and she needs to have made realistic mistakes or been ruined in realistic ways. For example, it could be as simple as "she tried to comfort and heal the Wyrm after it was driven mad, but it lashed out at her and struck a blow of pure madness that she could never heal. Her power sapped, she retreated more and more into the umbra, giving less and less guidance to her children, who grew more and more discontented with their brothers and sisters, until one day the Rage could not be contained...". Like seriously, that's all it would take.

      3: I reconcile it by saying that the setting's lore, as presented, cannot be the whole story, or must have inaccuracies. Gaia, as presented, would have done a better job delineating the roles of the Breeds and ensuring that they wouldn't implode on eachother.

      4: I'm faulting her for having made mistakes in her Designs which are patently idiotic, and the setting giving no reason for this happening. You can hand-wave mistakes easily and give lore which supports why they were necessary. I'm not an expert on the Werewolf lore, if there's good reasons for her mistakes then please inform me of them.

      5: The Kumo are a small faction of Ananasi and they continue to exist because the Queen can't see any reason to hunt them down. Obviously they're not stopping her plans from working. Spiders get everywhere, do you think destroying their rogue wannabe-god cousins would be hard? And you can't compare the Kumo being a thing to the BSDs and the War of Rage being a thing.

      5.5: The spider-kin are numerous to the point where they can't be counted. And the umbral realms are stuffed full of them too. Ratkin have a similar deal going, yes, and the Garou have the most active out-and-about visible kinfolk.

      6: Eh, their powers kind of put them out of harms way. A level 3 gift (IIRC) can make a web the size of a football field with Strength 8 restriction, something along those lines. And they're spiders. Spiders don't charge roaring into combat. If any breed doesn't need regeneration, it's them. Plus healing with blood isn't too bad, they can summon insects to eat to restore blood basically for free. As for Free Will, they clearly have it. They just have their Queen breathing down their necks and telling them what not to do and what they must do. Beyond those imperatives they have free will. One of them spends her spare time luring in child molesters to eat, for example, and I doubt the Queen really gives a shit. Plus Blood is a great substitute for Rage in my opinion, and having no Rage to invest freebies or EXP in means that they can max out Gnosis much more easily. And remember that literally (well, almost) any building in the world can be infiltrated by a spider which can easily be kinfolk. And we have the Crawlerling form which takes Indestructable up to 11, even if it has risks.

      7: That is a matter of opinion, I agree, but the lack of bane and the huge list of potential gifts is quite a big deal. Pick any one Breed and try and make them carry out the role of every Breed. IMO the Ananasi are the only ones who come close, with the Garou having so many tribes it's a bit trickier but I'm guessing that they could do it too.

      8: And their Queen is an ancient supernatural entity whose whole deal is knowing the right threads to pull on. She's exactly as Right as the ST wants her to be, sure, but she's certainly no dullard.

      9: But no one else is actively trying to restore sanity to the Wyrm or the Weaver, correct? The Ananasi are born of the Weaver, and even they realise she's gone too far. They actively accept that the Triat needs to be balanced, despite being infinitely stronger in a world where the Weaver runs rampant. And you could easily argue that the Ratkin's efforts to undermine the Weaver are allowed to continue by the Ananasi since it's part of their designs, far easier to let them do some of the work on that front. That's ST caveat however, and it's dumb to say "this splat is actually secretly controlling this splat, you suckers" unless you have a very good story backing it up and don't make one of them look like total chumps (I'm looking at you, Dirty Secrets).

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

        1: I'm saying that Ananasa seems to have a coherent goal, while Gaia is all over the place.
        Yes, Gaia is literally all over the place. She's the soul of the place. Eventually, the place has to do something on its own, which means the living things within it.


        5: The Kumo are a small faction of Ananasi and they continue to exist because the Queen can't see any reason to hunt them down. Obviously they're not stopping her plans from working. Spiders get everywhere, do you think destroying their rogue wannabe-god cousins would be hard? And you can't compare the Kumo being a thing to the BSDs and the War of Rage being a thing.
        The Kumo aren't the only ones; there's also one in the W20 Book of the Wyrm, and the Ananasi also mentions that Ananasa doesn't have nearly as much control as she would like to have. Plenty of hers fall to the temptation of the Wyrm or end up being clarified and returning as Drones.

        7: That is a matter of opinion, I agree, but the lack of bane and the huge list of potential gifts is quite a big deal. Pick any one Breed and try and make them carry out the role of every Breed. IMO the Ananasi are the only ones who come close, with the Garou having so many tribes it's a bit trickier but I'm guessing that they could do it too.
        The Ananasi are extremely fragile in comparison to all the other changers. No Rage means no chance to recover from a killing blow on the spot, or spontaneously being able to just throw down. No regeneration means that injuries, diseases and toxins take a lot more out of them. And sure, you can change into a swarm of spiders and try to get away, but the enemy also knows that you don't have the Master of Fire Gift, not that it would help. In the rare event that someone manages to deploy BC weapons against them, they also won't shrug it off like most other changers; they will die, and even faster if they try to get away as a swarm of spiders. Also, often times, their ace in the hole leaves them missing a massive amount of memory because someone got lucky and offed the controller spiders instead of just drones.

        8: And their Queen is an ancient supernatural entity whose whole deal is knowing the right threads to pull on. She's exactly as Right as the ST wants her to be, sure, but she's certainly no dullard.
        Who is also trapped and unable to do very much at all. In fact, she's pretty much being held to blackmail the Ananasi. With a much larger, cosmically-sized being, this isn't something that happens.

        9: But no one else is actively trying to restore sanity to the Wyrm or the Weaver, correct? The Ananasi are born of the Weaver, and even they realise she's gone too far. They actively accept that the Triat needs to be balanced, despite being infinitely stronger in a world where the Weaver runs rampant. And you could easily argue that the Ratkin's efforts to undermine the Weaver are allowed to continue by the Ananasi since it's part of their designs, far easier to let them do some of the work on that front. That's ST caveat however, and it's dumb to say "this splat is actually secretly controlling this splat, you suckers" unless you have a very good story backing it up and don't make one of them look like total chumps (I'm looking at you, Dirty Secrets).
        It's supposed to be the new wave of the future for that to be on the agenda. W20 presented the Garou, and then the Fera, as having eaten a lot of shit in the past, but also that they're getting together to make a difference, finally. There was a huge, full-color comic about the Eighth Sign of the Phoenix in the W20 core that I think is supposed to inform a lot of differences between it and fatalistic presentations of the game. All of the terrible shit was a prelude to explain why everything is in a sorry state; now, the player characters can do something about it.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

          Statistical nitpick: it was only an early death if you aggregated child mortality with adult mortality, which is not a realistic outcome or expression of numbers. Anyone who made it to adulthood actually managed to live about as long as most people live today... which might not be all that long. People can die young from no apparent cause, even today, or even die in spite of being treated for a condition that was worsened through sedentary life.
          Yes, throughout history, it was actually fairly common for people to live into their sixties or seventies if they were not killed off by a brand new disease (like the Black Plague during the 14th century in Europe) or a war. Child mortality was high, the majority of children died before they reached puberty, but there are a lot of reasons for that beyond infectious diseases. Genetic disorders probably killed off a lot of children between birth and puberty and, while it was tragic, it did mean that the human species was naturally weeding out the genetic disorders before they could pass on their weaknesses to the next generation. There are hundreds to thousands of genetic disorders that are not immediately fatal to children when they are born that will kill them off over time without modern medicine, and the majority of them are just caused by random damage to the chromosomes due to errors in cell replication during the earliest days of a pregnancy.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post

            Yes, throughout history, it was actually fairly common for people to live into their sixties or seventies if they were not killed off by a brand new disease (like the Black Plague during the 14th century in Europe) or a war. Child mortality was high, the majority of children died before they reached puberty, but there are a lot of reasons for that beyond infectious diseases. Genetic disorders probably killed off a lot of children between birth and puberty...
            You should have stopped here. Eugenics doesn't work.

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            • #36
              No one is advocating eugenics. It is just a reality that nature selects against the spread of genetic disorders caused by random mutations. It is called evolution.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                No one is advocating eugenics. It is just a reality that nature selects against the spread of genetic disorders caused by random mutations. It is called evolution.
                Back mutation rates make that less likely, as various traits can just crop up out of the blue. Also, the voice in which one describes a selection pressure matters; glowing praise is basically eugenics.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                  You should have stopped here. Eugenics doesn't work.
                  Selective breeding
                  gene engineering
                  hybridization

                  so when we call it by another name and do it to some other species it works, right? But as soon as it's done to someone who's DNA differs by 0.1% instead of 1% it's revolting.
                  Last edited by Warpwind; 04-30-2017, 02:32 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
                    But there is no pink-painting them as some kind of "weird heroes". They aren't heroes (or villains) AT ALL. They are monstruous monsters... And they have no reason AT ALL to care about it.

                    But, when you have werewolves with the mind set of "it's ok to be a monster"... Oh please.

                    If WtA were a game that portrayed the Garou as inhuman monsters that seek their spiritual purity... Ok, that's a game I would play. Humans are just reproductive bags at best, a plague at worst, and should be used as means for an end, all in the name of Gaia, a monstruous entity that oversees a dog-eat-dog world... Now, that's a game I would play.
                    Because the target group has a mentality that wants to play the 'Heroes'? besides such a thing would attract too much vocal attacks over the net, decreasing the sales.

                    Try BSD, or move to Beast the Primordial. They explicitly did away with Built-in morality there. Game even punishes you for being too nice and killing adds+4 to feeding roll.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Warpwind View Post

                      Selective breeding
                      gene engineering
                      hybridization

                      so when we call it by another name and do it to some other species it works, right? But as soon as it's done to someone who's DNA differs by 0.1% instead of 1% it's revolting.
                      Not every genome is equivalent. Humans tend to lack the neutral network of genes that many domesticated animals possess. There are a number of genes that, when deactivated, don't result in immediately catastrophic reactions. The human genome really can't take the kind of stresses that humans put other animals under with selective breeding; just look as the Hapsburgs, particularly Charles II of Spain. You'd need to use some fantastic gene modding to get good results out of that for humans, and by fantastic, I mean appearing in a work of fantasy, like, say, BattleTech, which is also influenced by the creators not really knowing or caring much about genetics in the first place (there's a common slip-up about believing that only recessive genes cause deleterious effects that's presence among some of the material).

                      Also, I find the process by which we got white tigers to be quite weird and disturbing, and do you think that doesn't fire my want to shoot down this concept?

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                      • #41
                        Well, the reason why selective breeding for animals and plants work is that we ruthlessly destroy anything with undesirable genes, which we are unwilling to do with humans. Even so, most purebred strains have a list of genetic disorders as long as your arm, they are just tolerated because they do not interfere with the function of the strain. While we all selectively breed with specific mates, we are usually interested in the whole package rather than individual traits.

                        It is not that you cannot selectively breed humans, it is just that we are unwilling to weed out people with undesirable characteristics from the gene pool because we are ethical. Anyway, I doubt most of us would be comfortable with the tradeoffs required for genetic optimization. The idea of selectively breeding a strain of beautiful humans with insatiable sexual appetites as a caste of dedicated sex workers is squicky, especially if their average IQ is 80, if they develop diabetes if they are allowed to eat a carb rich diet, and if all of them develop severe Parkinson's by the time they are forty.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          Well, the reason why selective breeding for animals and plants work is that we ruthlessly destroy anything with undesirable genes, which we are unwilling to do with humans. Even so, most purebred strains have a list of genetic disorders as long as your arm, they are just tolerated because they do not interfere with the function of the strain. While we all selectively breed with specific mates, we are usually interested in the whole package rather than individual traits.
                          this. I looked a bit into it and it's actually worse then what Aya Tari says.

                          also, wanted to add that our handling of the world and ourselves is very short sighted and will come to bite us in the ass very soon. What I wanted to say is that humans aren't some chosen race of the masters of the planet, driving Earth to better future through beneficient leadership. We are greedy, cowardly animals with overdeveloped intelligence. there is actually little difference between humans and other animals in DNA or psychology. humans basically act as invasive species on global scale.

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                          • #43
                            Pretty much. What is sad is that we possess the foresight and intellect to be something better, but we choose not to as a group. Rather than make the right choices, we make the easy choices, and the easy choices are usually bad choices. In effect, we are worse than animals because we have the ability to be better than animals, if you get what I am saying. That being said we are animals, and we are omnivores, so we are evolved to make certain types of choices, but there are right choices and bad choices even under those conditions (we can choose to treat the animals we slaughter more humanely, so they do not feel fear or pain before their moment of death).

                            One of the examples of this comes from genetic engineering. Monsanto decided that a fish gene that protects fish from freezing would be wonderful to add to tomatoes. You can read the story here (http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-...s-zmaz00amzgoe). While that was an easy problem to address, let the new breed go extinct, there are millions of examples throughout the last twenty years of people going for the easy choice rather than the right choice. In many ways, modern humans are the dark god of the Earth.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                              Pretty much. What is sad is that we possess the foresight and intellect to be something better, but we choose not to as a group. Rather than make the right choices, we make the easy choices, and the easy choices are usually bad choices. In effect, we are worse than animals because we have the ability to be better than animals, if you get what I am saying. That being said we are animals, and we are omnivores, so we are evolved to make certain types of choices, but there are right choices and bad choices even under those conditions (we can choose to treat the animals we slaughter more humanely, so they do not feel fear or pain before their moment of death).
                              Human morality is very debatable. Most of it is clearly delusion, both of others and ourselves. Most would better die then admit it. .

                              Look through 'Straw Dogs', 'Lucifer's Principle', etc. Gives interesting viewpoint. They explain it way better then poor old me.
                              Last edited by Warpwind; 04-28-2017, 02:08 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Beriorn View Post
                                Belial is barely on the level of the others in that list. Sure, he's extremely powerful but he's powerful on a level that player characters can hypothetically deal with thim. The others? Not so much.
                                I'm not so sure. Doesn't he move at the speed of light? And have the ability to split the Earth with a well placed earthquake?

                                Edit: On second consideration, I see what you mean.
                                Last edited by Mercurial; 04-29-2017, 03:03 PM.

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