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Many WoDs vs. Single WoD

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  • #91
    Originally posted by EvilTyger View Post

    Except that humans are VERY important in Werewolf. Maybe they shouldn't be. But the changing breeds have known they are, or at least would be (perhaps, in a self fullfilling prophecy), since the Impergium. And I'm pretty sure that even the least 'earthy' magical stylist (short of Infernalist) would say that the Earth dying would be a very bad thing for everyone, even if they never talked to a spirit or grew a tree.
    It's not a matter of impact, but of thematic allocation. In Werewolf, humanity is very clearly in the wrong as a whole, and they shouldn't be expanding beyond modest bounds and necessitating that the Ratkin take drastic action. Mage never really questions humanity's right to alter of the world around it, just whether or not you can get people to believe in it, and would be aghast to have Ratkin take just about any action.


    • #92
      Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
      So, since you're talking about MageMage lore, Now its time to repay in kind Aya (as I knew this time would come, inevitable)... Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT talk about Mage lore. When playing MAGE, you just takes Consensus as it is AND TRASH GAIA OR THE TRIAT. PERIOD.

      (Next time dont be so authoritarian when someone questions something about werewolf and you won't have to deal with this )
      ‚ÄčNo one is going to have to deal with this. You have repeatedly demonstrated you are not a good fit for this forum community so your posting privileges are being permanently suspended.

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      • #93
        Just to say it: The "Consensus it's Everything" it's not an extremist posture to portray the setting. The "Consensus it's Everything" it's the first thing you read when you open a Mage Basic. It's the core of it's cosmology.
        And this isn't about what mages believe, many mages believe otherwise (like, all young technocrats that wrongly believe that their science it's not the magick of the traditions but something demonstrable, while their Masters know better), but the game strongly implies that All of Reality get's defined by entities with Avatar (aka. Humans)

        While you can take some paragraphs of lore here and there to justify a not-so Dynamic Reality that's still "mage friendly", practically everything in Mage, even Mythic Threads and Foundations gets explained with the suggestion that even these things are product of the Consensus (the universal subconscious, things that are so ingrained that nobody questions, etc.)

        To say that you MUST depart from the idea that "Reality it's Consensual" to ST a Good Crossover game it's proff enough of how damaging crossover it's to the games involved. Namely, in the One WoD one of the core premises of a game it's objectively false, it's use in game gets discouraged (unless it's just a wrong IOC oppinion, and not something that will literally enter in game sooner or latter).


        • #94
          A key difference to realize why it's hard to equal-lore crossover Mage (And Mage specifically) with other gamelines, is that the Mage gameline inverts the usual WoD in-character/out-of-character lore formula.
          Here's a simplified example:

          "European vampires *believe* that vampirism is God's punishment on Caine. They *believe* that they are descendants from him, and some treat it as a sin to escape, others embrace it. Nordic vikings *believe* they are descendants from a warrior blessed by Odin. An African bloodline *believes* that they got created from love between one of theirs and a witch.
          What's true? Who knows, maybe they are all wrong. Up to the ST. It might be an endgame thing the characters discover.

          "What your characters believe? Come up with something fitting to your style. Have fun. Here are a lot of examples to help you though.
          Here are the hard facts though: Reality gets shaped by humanity's belief, and all that awakened Mages do is pure willworking, no matter what they *think* they are doing.

          Notice the reversal?
          In a game like Vampire, the game goes out of its way to create a rich in-game lore for a small set of beliefs that most characters stick to, while keeping the actual truth ultimately up for grabs.
          In Mage, the beliefs of the characters are up to the player to come up with and get creative at, they can be all over the place from the mundane to the absolutely freaky and outworldly without any established limits. But the game establishes the basic out-of-character facts of the world that the characters might not even ever accept to believe in.

          In both games, doing a crossover won't change anything in-game from the character's point of view at all. That's not the issue.
          They will still have their same opinions, belief systems and experiences. Same old, same old. However, while Vampire never establishes out-of-character Truth with a capital T (Aside of some of the endgame Gehenna book scenarios I guess) and thus does not really suffer OOCly from equal-lore crossovers, putting another game's lore on par with that of the Mage game in a crossover changes hard, out-of-character core concepts of the mage gameline's world.

          That's the big difficulty, and why so many Mage players react poorly to the idea of single-WoD crossovers. Hope that helps

          Last edited by Ambrosia; 03-02-2017, 04:29 PM.

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          • #95
            Still, Gehenna scenarios exist. I may want to use the Antediluvians as narrative tools to end the world, thus I want that to be a potential outcome.

            It's important to keep these things open. If in the One Wod it's *stated* that there's much more powerful beings than the Antes, that can and will impede the end of the world as we know it, then that narrative tool it's lost. Or at least it's not present, I mean, I know that I can do whatever I want with the lore, but the lore it's there to give you options. I didn't invented the Gehena concept, it was presented to me. And I think it was cool.
            If the rumors about 5th edition are true, then Gehena seems to have had a smaller impact in vampire society than the Anarch Revolt. I don't know you people, but that wasn't what I bought when Vampire sold me the Gehena.

            In the same vein, the Consensus it's important to Mage. Not as a belief held by the characters, but as a posibility, a basis to build the setting.
            It's part of Mage spirit, and while I mantain that there is both OOC and IOC Mage lore that points to the idea that maybe not all of Reality it's Consensual, I also think that the concept, as a core and loved concept of Mage, shouldn't be left aside to create One WoD (or, at least, shouldn't be treated as a minor sacrifice).
            Last edited by Aleph; 03-03-2017, 01:23 PM.


            • #96
              Mage is my favorite gameline, but I will definitely admit that Mages are the worst in crossovers to other gamelines. Sorcerers fit in the other games much better. Also I think Sorcerers as they are written are terrible in Mage.


              • #97
                Sorcerers are definitely good in a number of games as medium-level allies/enemies. Infernal Sorcerers are good as high-level allies/enemies. Just because a woman sacrifices a man every Beltane to Ishtar and turns him into spicy sausage for her snacks for the rest of the year does not mean that you cannot work with her (especially if she is sacrificing and eating only child molesters, rapists, and slavers).