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Character morality versus player expectation

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    They're a very particular form of "conservative" that doesn't hold the same values as modern conservative party members even in part. They're going to be 100% behind some things that the American right would utterly abhor, like de-criminalizing sex work and protecting sex workers. They're going to want people to not multiply carelessly or grow in population, much like most Garou. They aren't going to have any truck with a lot of the more modern doctrines of hate, such as racism. They might ascribe overly much symbolic or spiritual mean with transgender folk, but they aren't going to look askance at them, because they would have been living with them since there were humans. That's how old their "conservative" bent is - and do recall, they also revere change, since they take the embattled Wyld's side when the Triat starts causing a fuss, so they actually are about various forms of progressivism.
    Because reasons

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
      That's how old their "conservative" bent is - and do recall, they also revere change, since they take the embattled Wyld's side when the Triat starts causing a fuss, so they actually are about various forms of progressivism.
      If Wyld is progress, then how's Weaver representing science and urban civilization again?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
        If Wyld is progress, then how's Weaver representing science and urban civilization again?
        Weaver is stasis. It isn't as much the human progress and innovation it thrives on, but making everyone similar and more machine-like. It thrives on people being wheels in a machine, to the extreme. Science as innovation and science as wonder are very wyldish. And stasis exists in nature as well, since Weaver IS still a needed force of nature.

        @11twiggins In all honesty, I think it is just generation gap between players talking here. Still, it was pretty amusing.


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        • #49
          Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
          If Wyld is progress, then how's Weaver representing science and urban civilization again?
          Wyld is inspiration. Weaver is iteration.

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          • #50
            Wyld is change derived from chaos. Period. Those raw brute forces arent (or shouldn't be) representative of higher emotions and processes, not by themselves alone anyway. We can't simply categorize complex tought patterns into a triat of creation-permanence-destruction. A complex process like creativity or invention will pass over all 3 states on several times

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
              Wyld is change derived from chaos. Period. Those raw brute forces arent (or shouldn't be) representative of higher emotions and processes, not by themselves alone anyway. We can't simply categorize complex tought patterns into a triat of creation-permanence-destruction. A complex process like creativity or invention will pass over all 3 states on several times
              Actually, W20 is pretty clear that each Triatic member relates to a number of related things, like how the Wyrm is about decay and lessening in addition to death and such. In that vein, the Wyld is often expressed as potential, creation, and active progress.

              Also, have you considered the ramifications of the Wyld-spirits in W20 Umbra: the Velvet Shadow? One of them is explicitly a spirit of creativity associated with the use of natural stimulants like coffee.

              What's really complex here is the mire that the Triat have gotten themselves into. In this cosmic disarray, each ends up trying to take on the jobs of the other.

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              • #52
                I agree. The Triat is a really complex system, and then you get to add in the effects of the non-Triat Celestines and Incarna, as well as Gaia. For example, healing is related to the Wyld (creating new flesh), the Weaver (integrating new flesh), the Wyrm (destroying damaged flesh), Gaia (the proper function of life), Luna (regeneration), and Bear (healing).

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                  I agree. The Triat is a really complex system, and then you get to add in the effects of the non-Triat Celestines and Incarna, as well as Gaia. For example, healing is related to the Wyld (creating new flesh), the Weaver (integrating new flesh), the Wyrm (destroying damaged flesh), Gaia (the proper function of life), Luna (regeneration), and Bear (healing).
                  And madness is Wyld, but the Wyrm can also drive one mad, and Luna can bring madness too... Not to mention that the Dreaming is pure madness without banality, but that reality isn't a part of the Wyld, but since it's another game, it can be disregarded in a WtA discussion, but still.
                  But, lets take a felling like serenity, or calm. Which one is it? It's probably a Weaver related? Probably. But you can also have the "silence of the grave".
                  Vampires have both Wyrm and Weaver... Yeah.

                  I would say that, besides the spirits that directly serve the triat, other aspects of tellurian are not so easily defined.

                  Where would Gaia be under the triat after all?

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                  • #54
                    The three main non-Tradition factions of Mage represent different manifestations of hubris.

                    The Technocracy exhibit the hubris of control. They know how to keep Sleepers safe. They know how to keep Sleepers productive. They know how to keep Sleepers from knowing more than they can handle. They know how to keep the Sleepers following the right plan. They know how to keep the Sleepers.

                    The Marauders manifest the hubris of freedom. Total freedom. Freedom from convention, from reason, from community, from physics. And in that freedom they destroy those around them. Because part of human morality is stability, and some consensus as to what is right and wrong.

                    The Nephandi represent the hubris of nihilism. An extreme nihilism where consensus reality is seen as utterly bankrupt and needing to be destroyed, or as illusory and needing to be transcended through vile acts. It is the ultimate expression of hubris. That is why it is so alluring to mages from Traditions and Technocracy alike.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

                      And madness is Wyld, but the Wyrm can also drive one mad, and Luna can bring madness too... Not to mention that the Dreaming is pure madness without banality, but that reality isn't a part of the Wyld, but since it's another game, it can be disregarded in a WtA discussion, but still.
                      But, lets take a felling like serenity, or calm. Which one is it? It's probably a Weaver related?
                      According to the feelings radiated by drones and kami, calm is typically associated with the Weaver, and serenity, of Gaia.

                      Probably. But you can also have the "silence of the grave".
                      Vampires have both Wyrm and Weaver... Yeah.[/quote]

                      And some different forms of possessed have the weirdest overlap on powers.

                      I would say that, besides the spirits that directly serve the triat, other aspects of tellurian are not so easily defined.

                      Where would Gaia be under the triat after all?
                      In the middle of everything.

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