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Just how separate from the is WoD20 from 5th Edition?

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  • #31
    I think comparing iterations of WW games like VtM to D&D editions is apples and oranges. We have come a long way since first ed Vampire, but Revised and 20th aren't really that different. No one broke fellowship over the fact that 'dodge' was replaced by the broader 'athletics.' These changes aren't going to be like 3.5 to 4th ed, or even oWoD v. nWoD. Most of the core systems will be intact, but some story stuff will shift. It ain't gonna be that bad.

    I do think it is interesting from a marketing vantage point. People that have been fans of a game for 20+ years may be somewhat... resistant to change.

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    • #32
      We don't know a whole lot about WOD 5 as of now. We DO know that Onyx Path will be pitching to be involved with it--which is excellent news.

      We also don't know whether or not Onyx Path will be able to continue the anniversary lines(save for Vampire) once 5th edition is released. But there's certainly a possibility.

      I'll be waiting with optimism, as so far(save for one or two bumps), I've been fully on board with what the new White Wolf owners have been doing. Especially the last month or so.


      PENTEX SUCKS.

      I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
        I think comparing iterations of WW games like VtM to D&D editions is apples and oranges.
        Nobody's actually trying to do that though. We're comparing the scenarios behind the scenes during those editions. What has happening with WotC when the OGL allowed Pathfinder to split their fanbase and enabled the OSR thing to take off, and then the issues with WotC design decisions arounded 4e. What has happening as SR moved to CGL.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          Well, there isn't a WtA Prelude to judge things with, and there were statements that BNS got feedback from WW about the direction of Werewolf. It's probably not the best indicator, because we don't really have a breakdown of what WW impacted, but it's the only thing to speculate on at the moment.

          We know every Onyx path book has gotten feedback/approval from nuWW since the takeover, yet the prelude stuff was even more out of left field

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
            the Techies being against immigration,
            I think that's way too much of a blanket statement, from something as rudimentary as the Mage prelude.

            It can be as simple as something like a group of ITX Time-Motion managers and Statisticans, in conglomeration with Syndicate Finance wizards having decided that the pros of allowing massive immegration into Sweden does not outweight the cons of the economic and social stability/turmoil down the line, in long-term ways that only Enlightened Science can see and reason.

            This isn't Evil Technocracy, but simply the machine-like, emotionless pure-reason thinking that's on par with the course of the Technocracy partyline displayed in pretty much all previous editions - and it also doesn't necessarily mirror the actual humanistic thoughts in the heads of the frontline Technocrats and little-man heroes that the Technocracy definitely has.

            'We are now against immigration' for simply mundane political sleeper reasons isn't Technocratic thinking. But so isn't 'We need to let those people in purely based on our humanitarian emotions'.
            It's exactly the more alien thoughts of the enlightened that can, well, alienate them from humanity at times, and has done so before, be it Hermes in the past or Technocracy in the present. Which is the sweet irony given that the Order of Reason got created to counter the former..

            EDIT:
            And to add, if in some way the 5th edition also follows the optional M20 metaplot of seriously growing nephandic corruption in the higher Technocracy ranks, finding partyline-accepted ways of arguing against such things as allowing an immigration wave fits perfectly.
            Last edited by Ambrosia; 04-05-2017, 01:05 AM.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by Lian View Post
              We know every Onyx path book has gotten feedback/approval from nuWW since the takeover, yet the prelude stuff was even more out of left field
              We know every Onyx Path book licensed from WW has gotten approval. We know of very little of them offering editorial feedback or content adjustments. There doesn't seem to be much interest from WW to be concerned with the content of what Onyx Path is doing. They're not worried about anything but the WoD, and even then, everything from the 20th books can be revised in all the metaplot advancement they've said they want to do.

              This is a very different message than we received about BNS:Werewolf.

              Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
              I think that's way too much of a blanket statement, from something as rudimentary as the Mage prelude.
              I think that might be a bit... generous. The whole point of the Preludes is to preview the new tone of 5e. The Prelude seems to be setting a very strong tone of, "the Technocracy is going to be on the wrong side of European liberal values." Of course the Prelude doesn't preclude a more nuanced Technocracy, but it doesn't set the tone of one.

              It also largely ignores that Europe is, in many ways, growing to be what the Technocracy wants, and the current rise of nationalism and fascist thinking is regression from their plans.

              It can be as simple as something like a group of ITX Time-Motion managers and Statisticans, in conglomeration with Syndicate Finance wizards having decided that the pros of allowing massive immegration into Sweden does not outweight the cons of the economic and social stability/turmoil down the line, in long-term ways that only Enlightened Science can see and reason.
              This doesn't really hold up though. Every long term analysis IRL (aka what is, in Mage, Technocratic messaging to the masses) says that immigration is good to combat stagnation in stable first world economies. Social instability around immigration tends to be a short term con, not a long term con. The Union should, generally, be pro-immigration not because of any inherent humanitarian emotional argument, but because all the economists, sociologists, and similar experts agree that it's a net positive impact, and it is a useful tool in the fight to restabilize the Middle East (cutting down on breeding grounds for Reality Deviant activity, generally improving the global economy, etc.).

              If this is the excuse... it basically is saying, "yep, Evil Technocracy," because it's saying that the Technocrats buy into the fears of cultural melting pots "diluting" the current population more than all the actual pros and cons of immigration. Or, in other words, Enlightened Science is inherently xenophobic.

              This isn't Evil Technocracy, but simply the machine-like, emotionless pure-reason thinking...
              But for the majority of the history of the game, that's what makes the Evil Technocracy. The monolith of mechanistic thought that rejects morality and ethics for efficiency and power. It's the Technocrats that still maintain a human way of the thinking that are the sympathetic or even good ones.

              And to add, if in some way the 5th edition also follows the optional M20 metaplot of seriously growing nephandic corruption in the higher Technocracy ranks, finding partyline-accepted ways of arguing against such things as allowing an immigration wave fits perfectly.
              Nitpick: The M20 expanded on 2e metaplot of Nephandi corruption of the Technocracy.

              And yes, if you're going for a seriously compromised Technocracy scenario, the refugee crisis makes a lot more sense as something the Technocracy would end up creating, but that still ends up with "Evil Technocracy" just in a different form.
              Last edited by Heavy Arms; 04-05-2017, 02:25 AM.

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              • #37
                Xenophobia and bigotry are candy to the Nephandi because it encourages hate crimes that use personal difference to justify exploitation and victimization. Genocide, murder, rape, slavery, etc can be rationalized by bigotry and xenophobia. There are rational reasons to restrict immigration, nations should want to protect their citizens from physical harm, but illogical banning entire groups is irrational and counterproductive, especially considering that the natural tendency of two groups interacting is to interbreed in order to create a third group with superior genetics (and, by extension, a superior society).

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                • #38
                  For me, Techies in the end want the world to function well, and that means giving everyone the same chances of success. Looking at where someone is from is more the Traditions' style, where your culture can decide that Trad you'll join.

                  However, the other side to the Techies wanting similar rights all around is that it is yet another form of imperialism. While the Traditions keeps up...well, traditions of their home countries.


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                  • #39
                    Well, either way this is speculation and reading into subtext that may or may not be 100% true and reflective of the text presented.

                    For me, judgement time isn't going to come from the Preludes, but when nuWW actually puts out their big releases...like the VtM5e rulebook or the WtA video game.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                      or the WtA video game.
                      Which, next to maybe the reveal of Project Scorpio, might be my most anticipated video game thing ever.

                      I have a feeling the WtA video game is going to be sooooo good.


                      PENTEX SUCKS.

                      I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                      • #41
                        I am fairly doubtful about the WtA game because it is being done by Cyanide Studios, which primarily produces biking games.

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                        • #42
                          Cyanide does have a bunch of action RPGs under their belt... it's just not encouraging since they aren't particularly good. I haven't played most of them, but going over the reviews of their games more relevant to making a WtA video game, the majority of those games have mediocre reviews (at best) with a few stands outs of, "OK" games.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                            I am fairly doubtful about the WtA game because it is being done by Cyanide Studios, which primarily produces biking games.
                            You know, a Stargazer using Harmonious Unity of the Emerald Mother to get Crinos stats in Homid could pedal a racing bike along at 90 mph. A terrible use of an elder's time and experience, to be sure, but if you need to get somewhere fast or perhaps even impress a prospective mate, it couldn't hurt... (^VVVVVV^)

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                            • #44
                              Cyanide Studios did make the Blood Bowl games, which are faithful adaptations of the board game. On the other side of the coin however it also made Deathwatch, which is an adaptation of the board game Space Hulk but that was met with lukewarm responses.

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                              • #45
                                A lot of those biking games came at the beginning of the studio's history. They've definitely branched out since then. They produce one every couple of years now, but they're producing so much more than that.

                                Their more recent affairs(Styx, and Blood Bowl) are quite good.


                                PENTEX SUCKS.

                                I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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