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  • #46
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    This doesn't really hold up though. Every long term analysis IRL (aka what is, in Mage, Technocratic messaging to the masses) says that immigration is good to combat stagnation in stable first world economies. Social instability around immigration tends to be a short term con, not a long term con. The Union should, generally, be pro-immigration not because of any inherent humanitarian emotional argument, but because all the economists, sociologists, and similar experts agree that it's a net positive impact, and it is a useful tool in the fight to restabilize the Middle East (cutting down on breeding grounds for Reality Deviant activity, generally improving the global economy, etc.).
    Sorry for the late reply. RL!
    And I absolutely agree with this - in the real world. This is the WoD, where everything is a little bit more extreme. Be it the influence of extreme political groups, the mass of people being forced across the globe, the econonomic balance act that states need to do, etc.

    So yeah, I can quite see how in the WoD, things are not quite as easy in theory as they are in our surroundings.

    What I DO wish they had done in the Prelude, is give you the thematic choice - between the Traditions and the Technocracy - and to get an *explaination* from either side, from their point of view. Takes away the guesswork we're now left with, especially given that the Technocracy has been established as a valid player faction since Revised.
    If they are trying to make them pure antagonists again in 5Ee, that'd be a major step back in the 'all shades of grey' setting of mage.


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    • #47
      Ont hing I wanted to add to the discussion: if the artworks on the WoD: Berlin event's webpage are indicative to the visual direction of 5e, at least on that front I'll be very pleased. My heart will ever be with the b&w artworks, but damn, those pictures are really good!


      If nothing worked, then let's think!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Most people are assuming that 5e is going to mean the end of the 20th lines (at least in phases) since WWP isn't going to want to have new 20th material coming out at the same time as new 5e material. But we don't know any sort of details how that's going to play out.
        This kind of thing is one of the reasons I pull back from and lose interest in buying RPG material. In five decades of playing chess, checkers, and even the Royal Game of Sumer, the rules have not been changed once. I like the streamlining that went into what is now the Chronicles of Darkness. However, I never cared for the inferred meta of CoD nor the way CWoD was ended. With the Horizon Realm concept there were literally an unlimited number of expansions and variations of the theme - much like the Chronicles of Amber where all worlds are merely refractions or shadows cast by the Jewel of Judgment off of the first real world. There was never a reason to abandon the original concept since all possibilities could be true someplace, and our earth might just be another realm on the horizon.

        When I was very very young I purchased the first editions of games like Chainmail, Engarde, Eldritch Wizardy, Traveller, and of course AD&D. When AD&D created 2nd Ed which was not compatible with the hundreds of dollars in books I already owned, I quit buying their material. I moved on to explore other games like Fantasy Wargaming, Space Opera, Role Master, Harn, and eventually was introduced to WoD. Most of that I lost either to the 93 flood or later a house fire. I have been collecting the PDF versions of WoD, CWoD, Classic Traveller, D&D 3.5, and now Pathfinder. Out of nostalgia, I have the 20th Anniversary versions of Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf and I am still waiting for Wraith. But I have no interest in buying another rule change. I refused to buy D&D 2E, 3E, 4E, and 5E. I don't want to learn new rules. I want materials for the rules I have.

        I would like the WoD materials renovated to the CoD system. I will grant most of it seems to shift easily enough: Perception -> Resolve, Charisma -> Presence, Appearance -> Composure. However, I am not sure just how OP the powers are if shifted in the same way. And of course, Perception and Resolve are no where near conceptually the same. Still, what I would like to see are: 1) materials that are more plug and play, 2) electronic support in the form of game aids, and 3) more unified settings.

        By Plug and Play, I mean pre-prepared stats for pre-rated encounters which need only have a name, concept, and background notes added. These encounters need not be NPCs, but could be situations as well. Since the story teller system lacks "levels" per se, which is good, it might be more difficult to calculate what is an equitable encounter - especially across game lines. But a "book" with pre-generated NPCs from the various games and materials (Vampire, Mafia, Mage, Ghouls, Outcasts, etc.) with editable fields where the GM just adds in Name, Concept, and background notes, maybe adding a few things to the base equipment list, would save time in getting ready to play.

        Electronic Support: A sort of GM screen, even a separate Players screen with some restricted access, which would allow the individual to pull up any chart, table, power, character, rule, etc. in any legally acquired PDF within a specified folder. Such a game aid usable on notebooks, tablets, maybe even E-readers, would be invaluable to gaming. Say a base program for a reasonably low price with game appropriate skins and special effects for the presentation and e-dice being just a few dollars each would be fun to collect.

        More Unified Setting: Most of the materials I have cover a city or area for one game only. How about covering all the players in New Orleans (Changeling, Mafia, Mage, Mummy, Pentex, Vampire, Werewolf, Wraith, etc.) at least identify and stat out the major players and points of interest for each.

        I have never felt the original materials were ever exhausted. I don't know what 5E will supposedly entail. But my general reaction at hearing there will be one leans toward the negative.
        Last edited by Whithers; 04-08-2017, 06:01 AM.


        “It was clear to me for a long time that the origins of science had their deep roots in a particular myth, that of invariance." ~ Giorgio de Santillana
        Preface to Hamlet's Mill

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Whithers View Post
          In five decades of playing chess, checkers, and even the Royal Game of Sumer, the rules have not been changed once.
          This seems... very apples to oranges in comparison. These are all highly abstract board games that don't try to do what a RPG does. Chess and checkers might not have had major rules changes in the past 50 years, but their both extremely old games with lots of evidence of more variations and changes when first invent, which are now just standardized alternate rules.

          With the Horizon Realm concept there were literally an unlimited number of expansions and variations of the theme...
          Not really. The Horizon Realm concept allows for near endless play space in the Umbra sure, but Horizon Realms don't imply a full on mystic multi-verse.

          I don't want to learn new rules. I want materials for the rules I have.
          While reasonable, it is ultimately an unrealistic expectation from the industry. As long as new rules is more profitable (within the minor window of profits that RPGs generate) than new setting material and lore, new rules are going to be a priority.

          I would like the WoD materials renovated to the CoD system.
          Current position of the powers that be is that this isn't going to happen.


          Electronic Support: A sort of GM screen, even a separate Players screen with some restricted access, which would allow the individual to pull up any chart, table, power, character, rule, etc. in any legally acquired PDF within a specified folder. Such a game aid usable on notebooks, tablets, maybe even E-readers, would be invaluable to gaming. Say a base program for a reasonably low price with game appropriate skins and special effects for the presentation and e-dice being just a few dollars each would be fun to collect.
          This is entirely unrealistic. This program would either have to be huge and have every book in it that just unlocks content with some sort of validation process, or the PDFs would become obnoxiously bloated with all the background coding needed to make it work. Verifying legal ownership of the PDFs would be a nightmare in either case.

          More Unified Setting: Most of the materials I have cover a city or area for one game only. How about covering all the players in New Orleans (Changeling, Mafia, Mage, Mummy, Pentex, Vampire, Werewolf, Wraith, etc.) at least identify and stat out the major players and points of interest for each.
          There are WoD books that do this. Whether or not we'll see more out of the WoD with 5e is a complete unknown.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            This seems... very apples to oranges in comparison. These are all highly abstract board games that don't try to do what a RPG does. Chess and checkers might not have had major rules changes in the past 50 years, but their both extremely old games with lots of evidence of more variations and changes when first invent, which are now just standardized alternate rules.
            Indeed, the version of chess that is currently canonical was originally a variant to make the Queen less boring.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              This seems... very apples to oranges in comparison. These are all highly abstract board games that don't try to do what a RPG does.
              I acknowledge that there have been variations of the game over the millennia these games have been around. There is a difference in changing rules every 200 to 300 years and changing rules every 3 to 5 years.

              Not really. The Horizon Realm concept allows for near endless play space in the Umbra sure, but Horizon Realms don't imply a full on mystic multi-verse.
              Horizon Realms are pocket realms, such as Alice's Wonderland, the alternate earth in the Gor Series, etc. Even the shadowlands of the Chronicles of Amber, with earth being Amber and the Courts of Chaos abutting the Far Horizon. So, I guess we do not have consensus reality here, lol. And the description of a horizon realm infers, the individual interpreting implies.

              As long as new rules are more profitable (within the minor window of profits that RPGs generate) than new setting material and lore, new rules are going to be a priority.
              Are they more profitable if they simply cause people to walk away rather than buy them? Further, one of the greatest things Traveller did in the beginning set was to have a book of description and a separate book of charts. That made refereeing easier than in any other game I have ever played - including other variations of Traveller. If they are going to change rules every couple of years just to make the thousand dollars you have spent on their game utterly obsolete and worthless, then perhaps they could produce a bare bones rules book - stick with the mechanics. Make available a descriptive book for the new flavor of the new campaign setting imagined to go with these rules. However, frankly, I will not spend another grand accumulating materials for a system that is utterly unnecessary. I will simply cease to buy all new materials period - and cease buying any of their materials if there are reprisals against the customer base for this.

              Current position of the powers that be is that this [updating CWoD to NWoD] isn't going to happen.
              Would have been better than putting out the CWoD 20th series - making the new system irrelevant and resurrecting all the difficulties of the old one which the new set up fixed.

              This is entirely unrealistic. This program would either have to be huge and have every book in it that just unlocks content with some sort of validation process, or the PDFs would become obnoxiously bloated with all the background coding needed to make it work. Verifying legal ownership of the PDFs would be a nightmare in either case.
              Again, I disagree.
              1) PDFs can be tagged. Hacking might get around this, but there are ways to make alterations to the code on the PDF rejectable. It is like purchasing a game on Steam, adding an unapproved hack to it, and having the word "Cheater" appear and denying the Steam member any awards for playing that game after that. (I wanted to use a hack to catch back up to where I had been in a game to continue from there rather than spend a hundred hours rebuilding.)
              2) The part of the program dealing with the books would search only those books in the designated folder. Need spec.s on a specific werewolf gift? Type in the name and pull up that page in the appropriate PDF. This is pretty much a simple search function. This would not require much programming at all. The coding for being searched already exists. When I search through Windows 10 for all references to quarterstaff, I get a list of all books and articles germane to all games on my computer which contain the word quarterstaff inside it. The folder limitation would narrow the focus - decreasing the amount of time spent searching. I wouldn't have to have a dozen PDFs open in my PDF reader at the same time to hunt through them manually for a reference. The size of the PDF would not change. The size of the program would be fairly small.
              3) The largest part of the program, on the referee side, would be the ability to store campaign information and prepared encounters in a specific story folder. The next largest part would be quick availability of charts and tables.
              4) Such a program would be easy to chamber. For instance, I own a number of programs from Profantasy Software, Ltd. There is the basic Campaign Cartographer, and to it I have attached the Dungeon Designer, City Designer, and Cosmographer. Similarly, the base ST game for just mundanes could be a base $20. Additional game charts could be added for $10 a piece - one set for each game. This is simply an electronic version of the GM screen. Additional skins could be added for $5 each.
              5) For another $10, a chat program with die rolling conventions so that the GM can see each persons rolls, but the players can't see the GM's rolls, would also be minimal - though it would require the GM to either be able to host on their own computer via LAN or Web, or to interact with an online program - such as Discord. This latter would be the better option.

              There are WoD books that do this. Whether or not we'll see more out of the WoD with 5e is a complete unknown.
              It isn't the rule of thumb based on the materials I own, both in paper and in PDF. My hard copy materials are all CWoD. I have very little in the NWoD settings because they abandoned the CWoD meta, and the new meta means nothing to me.
              Last edited by Whithers; 04-08-2017, 07:53 AM. Reason: Grammar and spelling.


              “It was clear to me for a long time that the origins of science had their deep roots in a particular myth, that of invariance." ~ Giorgio de Santillana
              Preface to Hamlet's Mill

              Comment


              • #52
                There is nothing you can do to secure a PDF that cannot be undone by a motivated hacker (not if you want it accessible to people without military grade encryption). The best form of electronic security is to completely eliminate PDF books and, even then, there are people willing to scan the books. What we have is a compromised system where the RPG market is slowly collapsing as the number of gaming stores decline and, without the gaming stores helping to spread information by word of mouth, the number of gamers decline.

                I also played the old games during the 80s and 90s and their systems sucked. New editions should serve to fix the problems of the previous editions, though some new editions are inferior to the previous edition (5e Shadowrun is inferior to 4e Shadowrun). I think that cWoD needs a massive rules change, though I really dislike the rules of nWoD (Strength should not make melee attacks more accurate, which is something that D&D, and Pathfinder, still refuse to accept).

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                • #53
                  I'm not agreeing with Whithers, but I could understand the argument. A number of pals from our group have a very similar opinion. They learned a ruleset a while ago (in some cases, decades ago) and don't want to learn a new one, just want to play. It's understandable, with all the time deficit they have and responsibilities, etc. However, I still think learning a new one isn't THAT hard and time-consuming as it was frequently portrayed and it's mostly about comfort zone than anything (and sometimes language barriers, if an older editions got a translation and the newer one doesn't)

                  Also-also, yes, new editions aren't necessarily 'better'. DnD 4e and in my eyes even 5e aren't better than 3.5 and especially Pathfinder, they're just different and have different strengths. Same with NWoD/CofD and WoD.


                  If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Whithers View Post
                    There is a difference in changing rules every 200 to 300 years and changing rules every 3 to 5 years.
                    Sure, but that's ignoring the history of the games. When they were first created, the rules were being changed all the time. It wasn't until they were standardized and differentiated into multiple games that they became relatively static.

                    Are they more profitable if they simply cause people to walk away rather than buy them?
                    That's the thing. They don't "simply" do this.

                    There are always people that walk away with new edition or what not. But those people seem to be vastly outweighed by:

                    1) The people that like the new edition/book/etc. more than the old stuff.
                    2) The collectors who buy everything anyway.
                    3) The crowd that are attracted to the novelty of new books. An important side note here (and why Chess is a horrible example) is that game design innovation in RPGs is constantly happening, and the perception that your games have become dated and thus have lesser play experiences than newer games can lead to people just moving to a different similar game with newer design concepts. Basically, if you don't innovate, your competition will, and you'll lose sales for it.
                    4) New customers that were turned off by the size of the old edition and see a new edition as a good time to jump into the game.

                    Basically, your feelings aren't wrong or anything, but they are in a minority regarding customers for RPGs. For sheer economic reasons, you're not that primary target audience. You want a publishing scheme that involves you buying as little as possible, while there are people that will buy as much as possible. A company is always going to cater to people that want to be repeat customers over people that are looking for a one-and-done purchase. It's not personal, it's just... what the market pressures are.

                    ...just to make the thousand dollars you have spent on their game utterly obsolete and worthless,..
                    there are reprisals against the customer base for this.
                    I think you're attributing a hell of a lot of negative motivations to RPG publishers here. Yes, they are companies that need to make money. But their profits are highly sensitive to their customer base. If more people felt like you did, RPG publishing would have long since reoriented towards a lot of the things you're talking about because those models would be making the most money. The people that tolerate or like the current model that most big RPGs are published under are driving that model to dominate the industry.

                    Would have been better than putting out the CWoD 20th series - making the new system irrelevant and resurrecting all the difficulties of the old one which the new set up fixed.
                    Why?

                    The CofD and WoD are separate games. One doesn't obsolete the other (lots of people on this forum play both).

                    V20 was put out as a nostalgia product. It was something made for the VtM fans to have an omnibus collection of the original games (there's extremely little rules updating in the 20th lines). And then V20 took off and CCP/Onyx Path realized that there was a market for these books even after the WoD was out of print for so long. So they resurrected the WoD and continued with the CofD (as it would eventually be rebranded to avoid confusion) as two separate sibling games.

                    Again, I disagree.
                    Your disagreement here seems to be very lacking in understanding the practicalities of what you're asking for. Sure a lot of this stuff is technically possible, but that doesn't mean it's economically feasible. For example, Steam verification works because you either buy your game through Steam, or you can register the game with Steam (which isn't always possible). Creating the same thing for WoD PDFs would require creating a whole new PDF store (and thus renegotiating their deal with One Book Shelf/DriveThruRPG since they'll still need a POD service) where the PDFs would be logged directly into the verification system like Steam does. This would also require paying people enough money to make it worth recoding all the PDFs to work with this system. It's not nearly as simple as you're making it out to be.

                    It isn't the rule of thumb based on the materials I own,
                    Nope, but there isn't a big demand for it with the WoD. I'm just noting that it does exist in the books that have been done.

                    The CofD does a lot more of it, because it was designed from the ground up as a more unified game and setting where you can do settings with multiple supernaturals all detailed like what you're asking for.

                    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                    They learned a ruleset a while ago (in some cases, decades ago) and don't want to learn a new one, just want to play. It's understandable, with all the time deficit they have and responsibilities, etc.
                    It's very understandable that people feel this way. It's just unreasonable to think a RPG publisher is going to cater to them over customers that are more happy to buy new stuff more frequently.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      For app support, I think it need not be quite so ambitious.

                      1) Character sheets. (Paper sheets are so 1990's)

                      2) incorporate a dice roller. Click appropriate app and ability for a roll. Powers automatically know which. Custom inputs a must for homemade powers and abilities.

                      3) damage tracking, willpower and 'magic' spending tracking.

                      4) wi-fi support to connect to a player with a storyteller screen type app.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        It wasn't until they were standardized and differentiated into multiple games that they became relatively static.
                        So, all I have to do is live a millennium or two and the rules will become more reliable. Got it.

                        1) The people that like the new edition/book/etc. more than the old stuff. AND 3) The crowd that are attracted to the novelty of new books.
                        As I pointed out, there is nothing to prohibit variant themes existing side by side with the original meta - even contradictory plots and themes within the same facets radiating from a central source. Like Hawkmoon, Corum, and Elric all being incarnations of the Champion Eternal.

                        2) The collectors who buy everything anyway.
                        Which is economy dependent. The lower the economy goes the less this market will be beneficial.

                        ... that game design innovation in RPGs is constantly happening, and the perception that your games have become dated and thus have lesser play experiences than newer games can lead to people just moving to a different similar game with newer design concepts.
                        First, there are no new concepts. Nihil nova sub soli. It is all merely a Hero with a Thousand Faces.

                        The birth of each child is the invasion of a new barbarian to be civilized. Ex barbariae e duc eos. The perception you identify is the limited experience of the immature. Packaging individuated concepts, like writing different series of novels, does not require an end to the system.

                        4) New customers that were turned off by the size of the old edition and see a new edition as a good time to jump into the game.
                        One operating system multiple settings. Especially now that digital materials are replacing paper, and E-readers replacing books, updating rules systems no longer requires attempting to glue pages into the back of a hardback book. Optional rules, or house set rules, can make mechanics modular while campaign settings with a line of modules to explore a storyline, plot, or theme.

                        You want a publishing scheme that involves you buying as little as possible, while there are people that will buy as much as possible.
                        Here you are simply wrong. I want a game I can rely on so the materials I want to buy are worth bothering to buy. When the materials are continuously made irrelevant and abandoned then there is no reason to buy them. When I have no expectation of the game remaining reliable then there is no reason for me to invest in the next one either.

                        If more people felt like you did, RPG publishing would have long since reoriented towards a lot of the things you're talking about because those models would be making the most money.
                        That supposes that RPG companies are capable of doing what no one else has ever managed, which is to quantify the value of negative evidence. If one surveys for zebras described as a white horse, one will have no evidence of zebras. If one defines all abusers as victims of abuse, then all victims of abuse will be defined as abusers - but no one tracks those who never became abusers.

                        Your assumption is that novel lines cannot be promoted or produced within the same system. A single reliable game, usable from generation to generation, open to playing different story lines. The Story Teller system is capable of covering concepts such as Elric of Melniboné, Dune, Foundation and Empire, Lord of Light by Zelazny, Caesars Commentaries, the Martian Chronicles, Witch World, and thousands more. The only limitation on the Story Teller system is the failure to meet its existing dynamic capacity. One system, multiversal application.

                        I think you're attributing a hell of a lot of negative motivations to RPG publishers here.
                        You assuming motivation where I postulate possibility.

                        Why?
                        Waste of HD and time. I shouldn't need to put as much effort into RE-learning a game as it would take to acquire a new college minor. Again, One Operating System, Multiversal Application. And yes, when the game is changed - even abandoned, and all new materials are in a new game system, then one is made obsolete and the hundreds or thousands of dollars invested in it are reduced to worthless.

                        And then V20 took off and CCP/Onyx Path realized that there was a market for these books even after the WoD was out of print for so long. So they resurrected the WoD and continued with the CofD (as it would eventually be rebranded to avoid confusion) as two separate sibling games.
                        So, as I stated. They realized what had been cast asside and for which they were not looking. They stumbled into negative evidence because they changed the definitions in their survey. Those who failed to comprehend the dynamic nature of the first, disliked a meta which they felt controlled by. They were in error. There was nothing in the materials which prevented its application on everything from The Long Cosmos to The Clan of the Cave Bear.

                        very lacking in understanding the practicalities of ...
                        Nope.

                        It's very understandable that people feel this way. It's just unreasonable to think a RPG publisher is going to cater to them over customers that are more happy to buy new stuff more frequently.
                        Yes, because wasting time and money reinventing the wheel rather than producing a wider selection of materials to expand the target market is so much better.
                        Last edited by Whithers; 04-09-2017, 12:20 AM.


                        “It was clear to me for a long time that the origins of science had their deep roots in a particular myth, that of invariance." ~ Giorgio de Santillana
                        Preface to Hamlet's Mill

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          What we have is a compromised system where the RPG market is slowly collapsing as the number of gaming stores decline and, without the gaming stores helping to spread information by word of mouth, the number of gamers decline.
                          This is a product of both the continuously collapsing economy for the bulk of society and the increase in online sales which is cheaper than retail outlet models. Sears was the innovator in the late 1800's with mail order through catalogs. In 1873, for $5 it was possible to order work tools, a weeks worth of clothes, bridle and saddle, and what was effectively a modular home. Delivery via the new railway system was the equivalent of ordering online today and having it delivered by UPS. The games I play are played online now. Not one of us is in the same state.


                          “It was clear to me for a long time that the origins of science had their deep roots in a particular myth, that of invariance." ~ Giorgio de Santillana
                          Preface to Hamlet's Mill

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Whithers View Post
                            So, all I have to do is live a millennium or two and the rules will become more reliable. Got it.
                            No, you should stop comparing Chess to D&D in terms of expectations of rules continuity.

                            As I pointed out, there is nothing to prohibit variant themes existing side by side with the original meta - even contradictory plots and themes within the same facets radiating from a central source. Like Hawkmoon, Corum, and Elric all being incarnations of the Champion Eternal.
                            OK, I'm going to say this a bit more bluntly:

                            Just because you like what you like does not mean you are the typical RPG customer. Your posts reek of One True Wayisms where your preferences are the only ones that matter.

                            You want a universal generic system that can be fine-tuned to whatever themes/genres/etc. you want? Those exist. Go play them. Be happy.

                            Other people don't want that. They want their games written for a certain style, and any tolerance for alternate rules/setting material needs to be tempered by the limitations of a non-generic non-universal system.

                            Which is economy dependent. The lower the economy goes the less this market will be beneficial.
                            Great, so, why does every major RPG company continue to do new editions despite the predictable reaction that some fans aren't going to want to change over?

                            If new editions were a bad business model, why are they all doing it? In a tightening economy there's all the more reason to cater the most to the customers that spend the most.

                            This has nothing to do with "quantifying negative evidence." The can simply look at the sales data. If sales generally do not slump with new edition releases, there's no reason to assume new editions inherently means a net loss of customers.

                            Here you are simply wrong. I want a game I can rely on so the materials I want to buy are worth bothering to buy.
                            I'm not seeing me being wrong, just you rephrasing it the same basic point.

                            Your assumption is that novel lines cannot be promoted or produced within the same system.
                            No. My assumption is that it isn't profitable to focus on a "one system for generation to generation." I made no assumption about if you can make it, just one whether it would be profitable to do so.

                            The Story Teller system is capable of covering concepts such as Elric of Melniboné, Dune, Foundation and Empire, Lord of Light by Zelazny, Caesars Commentaries, the Martian Chronicles, Witch World, and thousands more. The only limitation on the Story Teller system is the failure to meet its existing dynamic capacity. One system, multiversal application.
                            Here's the thing. Just because the ST family of systems can theoretically handle all of that doesn't mean they're the best at handling all of that. Every system has strengths and weaknesses. There are systems who's strengths and weaknesses line up better for various genres/etc. than the ST family of games. And those games will sell better for it. So it's better for the ST family to recognize what it does well, and stick to that, because it was never intended to be a one system for all your needs thing anyway.

                            You assuming motivation where I postulate possibility.
                            Putting an "if" in front of an assertion of motivation doesn't magically make not an assertion of motivation. I don't care if you see it as "postulating possibility," because there's no reason to postulate those possibilities unless your rhetorical goal is to assign negative motivations to RPG designers and publishers. You didn't spend any time postulating any of the plethora of other possibilities after all. Or ever acknowledge their existence.

                            Waste of HD and time. I shouldn't need to put as much effort into RE-learning a game as it would take to acquire a new college minor. Again, One Operating System, Multiversal Application. And yes, when the game is changed - even abandoned, and all new materials are in a new game system, then one is made obsolete and the hundreds or thousands of dollars invested in it are reduced to worthless.
                            None of this addresses the question of how the CofD was made obsolete by the 20th books, which was your assertion.

                            The CofD and the 20th books are being released parallel to each other. There is new material for both, neither is abandoned (yet). And as two separate (if similar) games, having both is not a waste of money unless you only intend to play one in the first place (and if you were already invested in the CofD there was no reason to switch to the 20th books just because they were released).

                            They realized what had been cast asside and for which they were not looking.
                            Not really? Yes, they were surprised at how well the initial 20th books did, but that doesn't disprove the logic used in the original shift from the WoD to what would become the CofD.

                            They were in error.
                            Ooooh look! No "if" this time.

                            They weren't in error, because they're still making the CofD (I'm seriously wondering if you don't realize this) which has fans that buy it. The rest of this is just repe

                            Nope.
                            Citation needed.

                            Yes, because wasting time and money reinventing the wheel rather than producing a wider selection of materials to expand the target market is so much better.
                            Yes it is, despite your pathetic rhetorical purple prose and bombastic repetitions that amount to nothing more than a poor smoke screen for not having a solid point.

                            What you want doesn't work as well in the RPG market as the way things are.

                            That doesn't mean you're wrong to want what you want. It just means that you have to cope with the fact that it's not what's going to happen.

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                            • #59
                              The best universal system is GURPS, and it is starving to death for attention because Steve Jackson Games makes more money hand-over-fist from Munchkin. Munchkin is a physical product, it is impossible to turn into a useable PDF, so it very hard to steal. That is probably why the board game market is doing fine while the tabletop market is dwindling.

                              We do not purchase WW games for the systems because, quite frankly, their systems suck. We buy them because of the concepts and the stories. WtA probably was the most innovative WW game because it showed werewolves (and the majority of other shapeshifters) as epic heroes rather than cursed villains. The other games pretty much follow trope, though they each have their original elements (Grandmother in Orpheus/WtO, the Kindred versus KJ conflict in VtM, etc). I think that most of the previous books will always be useful because STs can adapt them or mine them for ideas.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                                No, you should stop comparing Chess to D&D in terms of expectations of rules continuity.
                                No supporting evidence.

                                Just because you like what you like does not mean you are the typical RPG customer.
                                So, typical RPG customers do not like what they like...

                                Your posts reek of One True Wayisms where your preferences are the only ones that matter.
                                You want a universal generic system that can be fine-tuned to whatever themes/genres/etc. you want?
                                The Story Telling system is already a universal generic system. This is why one can make a base character and then simply use an add-on sheet to track characteristics developed through game play because they awaken, are embraced, die, etc. So, if people don't want that then they should abandon the Story Teller System. What makes the Story Teller System superior is the very dynamic nature you claim does not exist.

                                Great, so, why does every major RPG company continue to do new editions despite the predictable reaction that some fans aren't going to want to change over? If new editions were a bad business model, why are they all doing it? In a tightening economy there's all the more reason to cater the most to the customers that spend the most.
                                For two reasons:
                                1) When the economy suffers, and the more it suffers, the more people buy the fantasy which their life lacks. During the Reagan Era, art sales of still life, portraits, landscapes, etc. plummeted. Sales of fantasy art went up, but was still minimized in value by the falling economy induced through Trickled On Economics. Fantasy gaming has an increased public interest, video or otherwise, because people like going someplace where their efforts result in at least the image of being successful, looking good, and not being broke all the time. However, the same forces which are destroying retail outlets, closing Payless, Staples, etc. are affecting the entertainment - including the gaming, industry. The false sense of benefit you admire is also crumbling as the general public ceases to be supported by the currents of previous economic streams. Just as the Grand Canyon is a pathetic creek in comparison to 75 years ago, the flow of the economy among the majority is a trickle of what it was 40 years ago. The crunch which reactionary business forces keep shapeshifting to meet is not something changing facades can fix.
                                2) Because of Gate Keeping. Just as media services race to publish the same scoop everyone else is attempting to scoop, to engage in the same expectations of the public every one else is expecting, or like the military always preparing to fight the last war instead of comprehending the technology of the next one - corporate entities trend to make bad decisions because they are trained to a set of marketing concepts limited by the expectations of past environments. The sales data you rely upon is based upon ignoring the venues not saught and emphasizing the value of positives against which they have no comparison.

                                I'm not seeing me being wrong, just you rephrasing it the same basic point.
                                That is willful blindness. You stated I want to purchase as little as possible. That was a lie. I want to purchase as much as possible and practicle. Budgets may restrict opportunity, but they do not determine interest. A limitation of capacity is never a limitation on desirability. However, I am not a jock looking for the top page brief, a hugger looking for the sentimental, or a brain looking for continuously crunched number. I am an intuitor primary, which valuing parts of all of these, sees beyond their limitations to the holistic sum.

                                Here's the thing. Just because the ST family of systems can theoretically handle all of that doesn't mean they're the best at handling all of that. Every system has strengths and weaknesses. There are systems who's strengths and weaknesses line up better for various genres/etc. than the ST family of games. And those games will sell better for it. So it's better for the ST family to recognize what it does well, and stick to that, because it was never intended to be a one system for all your needs thing anyway.
                                Bologny. The Story Teller System was meant to create the most credible suspension of disbelief possible. This can only be done by inculcating the real. It is the real which it makes plausable that expands its capacity to be universal. It speaks to universal truths. It depends upon the universal tragedies of the human condition. It is, like all the fictions which it can be used to represent, the exploration of reality by other means.

                                Putting an "if" in front of an assertion of motivation doesn't magically make not an assertion of motivation. I don't care if you see it as "postulating possibility," because there's no reason to postulate those possibilities unless your rhetorical goal is to assign negative motivations to RPG designers and publishers. You didn't spend any time postulating any of the plethora of other possibilities after all. Or ever acknowledge their existence.
                                "It is for to us to find the negative. The positive is already given." ~ Franz Kafka.
                                And you are utterly incorrect. "If" is one of the most powerful two letter words in the universe. It by nature exactly removes the assertion and merely entertains a stated possibility. The response, wherein you doth protest too much, is indicative of another agenda - one often driven by fear of both risk and the indeterminate which was always indeterminate. But then I display a general garment and only you can assess if it stretches to fit you. Any response of course being immaterial to the reality, since it will have more to do with your agenda.

                                None of this addresses the question of how the CofD was made obsolete by the 20th books, which was your assertion.
                                Through the limitations of economy and the determination to reduce support. A dry well in the Sahara quenches no thirst.

                                ... if you were already invested in the CofD there was no reason to switch to the 20th books just because they were released).
                                Since there is no support for the CWoD Meta in the NWoD materials that is untrue.

                                Not really? Yes, they were surprised at how well the initial 20th books did, but that doesn't disprove the logic used in the original shift from the WoD to what would become the CofD.
                                It doesn't disprove logic, it disproves the given upon which the logic was asserted. Hence, the conclusion was made in error. If it had not been made in error then the nostalgic materials would have meant nothing and the venture would have been fruitless.

                                Citation needed.
                                I have worked with people who could write shells capable of doing exactly what I described in an afternoon. But then that was in a day when programmers could still speak standard English and people had the same classical style of education that resulted in the White Wolf campaign settings. Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps the "advances of today" have left so many people brain dead and myopic they are not capable of achieving what we could do a generation ago. Your implication.

                                Yes it is, despite your pathetic rhetorical purple prose and bombastic repetitions that amount to nothing more than a poor smoke screen for not having a solid point.
                                You have yet to produce a point which isn't mired in the quicksands of the parochial fear monger.

                                What you want doesn't work as well in the RPG market as the way things are.
                                Something which is never tried being dismissed because there is no positive evidence of it working since it was never tried. Your conclusion comes from a circular argument.

                                That doesn't mean you're wrong to want what you want. It just means that you have to cope with the fact that it's not what's going to happen.
                                I rarely declare what I want. That would an irrelevancy. I declare the possibility of paths and estimate the results of paths being taken. The outcome is a hackable code which any intuitive analyst may decipher and image. Displeased with the limitations of WtO and GtSE, I wrote my own house game using NWoD mechanics and CWoD meta. I am capable of creating what I want personally. I am capable also of being disappointed at the waste of opportunity which the ST system affords and refuses to support. That disappointment restricts my purchase. I am not the only one whose purchases are thus restricted.


                                “It was clear to me for a long time that the origins of science had their deep roots in a particular myth, that of invariance." ~ Giorgio de Santillana
                                Preface to Hamlet's Mill

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