Just how separate from the is WoD20 from 5th Edition?

[EvilTyger]

In regards to the "edition" split, I think the comparison to D&D and Pathfinder is more apt. One of the biggest risks for WoD 5e is that WW has opted to develop it themselves (also scrapping the early plans Onyx Path was already hatching to do the same thing), which means creating a rift between Onyx Path fans and WW fans that's more than just an edition war.

To be fair, everything is so hush hush right now, that there isn't any way to know what it's going to be. We already see some fragmentation, and this isn't exactly a unified hobby to begin with. Even during it's heyday, BEFORE revised, there was Camarilla vs Sabbat, Sabbat splatter-punk celebrating being vampires vs Sabbat struggling heroes trying to prevent Gehena, does Werewolf include the other breeds or not, Mages use magic vs Mages are magic.

Revised brought new wrinkles in, some of which went better than others. Then 'New' WoD brought some new fans, exited some existing fans, but then others felt like WW abandoned them and the massive amounts of time and money they had spent building their own little corner of the WoD.

While they claim that they plan to be more responsive to the fanbase and outside influences, which can work, but with a divided fanbase, what one group loves, another will hate. And even then, what we have already seen (from Mage and Vampire computer games) leans toward the 'ham fisted' approach of the 90s, which I don't think will work with a game line that is going to build from nostalgia with a fanbase that has grown up. (Or at least older.)

Also, they are still somewhat lacking in the fan feedback area. You'd think that when declaring how much they value publishing partners, that they'd have a link back to the one currently doing most of the work.

[Heavy Arms]

However, the point I was aiming at, is that there's a big risk of Onyx Path vs. White Wolf for the "true WoD" where Onyx Path has more of the long term creators, far more fan goodwill, and probably a better idea of what the mechanics should be simply by virtue of experience, and White Wolf has the legitimacy of being the official product, the greater reach from a corporate backer with more resources, and a lot more connections with the LARP community.

That's a very different issue for the community than edition wars.

Also, I'll at least give WW the credit of regularly using Facebook and Twitter to promote Onyx Path work. It's not as much as they should be doing in a number of outreach areas, but they're at least doing signal boosting.

[Lian]

However, the point I was aiming at, is that there's a big risk of Onyx Path vs. White Wolf for the "true WoD" where Onyx Path has more of the long term creators, far more fan goodwill, and probably a better idea of what the mechanics should be simply by virtue of experience, and White Wolf has the legitimacy of being the official product, the greater reach from a corporate backer with more resources, and a lot more connections with the LARP community.

That's a very different issue for the community than edition wars.

Also, I'll at least give WW the credit of regularly using Facebook and Twitter to promote Onyx Path work. It's not as much as they should be doing in a number of outreach areas, but they're at least doing signal boosting.

If the recent Preludes stuff is anything to go by they aren't any more in touch with the Larp community as they are table top. This much more likely to be "Europe vs Amerian" branches.

[Beriorn]

I will be INCREADIBLY impressed if they hit those dates.

Come on, don't be like that. They might have a lot of work going on but I'm sure they'll make it, just like the Q3 release of Wraith20 back in 2014.

[tasti man LH]

This could easily drive players towards just sticking with the discontinued 20th books (assuming that happens), CofD or Storypath conversions of the WoD games to get more modern game design while keeping what they like about the setting (basically the equivalent of Pathfinder), and leaving WoD 5e fairly in the lurch as a product; necessitating a WoD 6e to actually get back to rebuilding the game lines from where the 20th books put them.

And in the case of D&D, even that didn't entirely work out.

Even though D&D5e has been in full swing with 4e a distant memory, I've seen quite a few people refuse to go back. That they simply like the way how Pathfinder's game system is, that they have a zero tolerance policy and feel D&D4e shouldn't have happened to begin with and WotC lost the benefit of the doubt, that they didn't like what they saw with 5e back when it was for free and called D&D Next, and how they just like Paizo as a game company more over WotC. And as such, have zero incentive to come back

And as pointed out in this already, we're seeing something similar here. Where people really like OPP and the people working in it more over the people currently in nu-WW. So even if WW DOES make a huge course correction in a theoretical WoD5.5-6e, people may not even come back because they still largely prefer OPP.

[Heavy Arms]

Absolutely. And an additional issue a long those lines, is that despite what the WoD used to be, it isn't in the same place as D&D. D&D despite what happened with the last few editions has always been "the RPG" in the minds of many people, and has a huge draw because of it. Pathfinder, the OSR, and people just getting tired of WotC and trying completely different systems have put a major dent in D&D's marketshare, but it's still very much on top.

The WoD doesn't have that padding. It can't shed people to a "OSR" set of well designed WoD-clones, to Onyx Path's other products, and to the rather large group of good urban fantasy/horror games that are also already out there, and expect to have many TT players left.

That's why this sort of potential division should be really scary to WW compared to the extant issues of an edition war. All long standing games endure edition wars without losing too many fans in the process. I don't think any game besides D&D could withstand the pounding D&D took over the last few editions even with it on the rebound now.

[kalinara]

I think maybe I'm a bit clueless, but I don't really see what the big deal is. World of Darkness has never been the same kind of tabletop game as D&D. It's always been about the setting, splats and the metaplot development more than it's ever been about gameplay rules (if we cared about that, we'd probably all have migrated to Chronicles of Darkness instead.)

Obviously, we'll have edition preferences and edition wars, those are unavoidable. But it's always been easy to take a new sourcebook, steal/adapt what we like and junk the rest. And even the most die hard 2nd Edition fans can usually think of one or two things from Revised that they want to keep, and vice versa.

There's nothing that says we have to choose between White Wolf and Onyx Path. We can buy what looks interesting, choose what rule systems work the best for us, and adapt whatever ideas we want to use. This just means we'll have even more material to choose from.

[Heavy Arms]

It's not really about D&D vs. WoD, but about how fans reacted to what happened with D&D over the last few editions, because fans aren't really that different despite their preferences.

What happened with D&D mirrors a lot of what's starting to happen with the WoD. It's speculation, but educated guessing nonetheless.

Do people "have to choose?" Of course not. There's people that play D&D and Pathfinder. There's people that play WoD and CofD (like me!). But there's some key things that overlooks. That's why we're pointing to things like Pathfinder. D&D lost a lot of sales when it suddenly had serious competition from Pathfinder. People didn't buy both and mine their second favorite one for what good ideas it had. They invested in the one they liked more. Brand loyalty, finances, views on the different companies, etc. These things get progressively harder to manage when you're looking at a division between companies rather than just a division between editions.

[tasti man LH]

I think maybe I'm a bit clueless, but I don't really see what the big deal is. World of Darkness has never been the same kind of tabletop game as D&D. It's always been about the setting, splats and the metaplot development more than it's ever been about gameplay rules (if we cared about that, we'd probably all have migrated to Chronicles of Darkness instead.)

You'd be surprised how...passionate people get about their metaplots.

For instance, let's switch from D&D, over to Shadowrun.

Long story short for those that don't know: it's basically what happens when you mash together the cyberpunk genre with urban fantasy. Or to put it more bluntly, it's what happens when you cross Blade Runner with Lord of the Rings.

Anyways the Shadowrun game is about as old as the WoD gameline. Slightly older, technically: Shadowrun 1e came out in 1989 while VtM1e came out in 1991. And like WoD, Shadowrun tends to be more well known for the evocative setting...and its ongoing metaplot. Granted, unlike with WoD, it wasn't *really* leading to a big finale like Gehenna/Apocalypse/Time of Judgement, etc but events happened and there was continuity and progression of said events. The kind of events that shook things up in the Shadowrun world and changed things for the in-setting nations, corporations, and the characters.

And then...4th Edition happened.

The previous three editions occurred in a fairly straightforward linear timeline. Each new edition taking place only a few months after the last book from the previous edition. At the beginning of 4th edition...there was a time-skip. A 6 year time skip, where suddenly there was a brand new status quo (new characters, new corporations, new progressions in magic and technology) that came right the hell out of nowhere, and the playerbase really couldn't ease into them. And that overall the changes to the setting just, didn't make the game feel like the Shadowrun the fans had known and love from 1st-3rd edition.

(although admittedly some of these setting changes were to facilitate the new dice mechanics for 4e. Which honestly Shadowrun had a long time coming: 1e-3e were notorious for how convoluted and confusing their mechanics were. Wanna know how you make freaking Damage ratings for a weapon messy and stupid? Try having it be two different numbers and a letter thrown in there!)

Also, a change in developer companies, from the now-defunct WizKids to Catalyst Game Labs, didn't help things either.

Not helping were the metaplot events that came throughout the course of 4th edition, and later into its 5th edition. Events that relied on inconsistent character behavior, blatant ignoring or retconning of rules that would have prevented these events from happening, and what people perceived as general lapses in logic and common sense from the characters involved.

It got SO bad that in their forum sites, we have fans and the freelancer writers coming to blows with each other, with neither side looking good coming out of it. We have either fans coming out a little TOO blunt and TOO honest about how they felt about the current state of the game. And the writers getting TOO defensive about their work and speaking out of turn, escalating things even more. All the while the people directly employed to the company, including the line developers...stay absolutely silent and don't do anything to intervene and defuse things.

And now we have either writers that get scared away from even talking to the fans again, and fans that, if they haven't abandoned the game completely, have dwindling respect for the writers and the company.

...yeah I left THAT burning ship awhile ago. Place had become toxic as hell to even be around.

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And with how things are with nu-WW there's...already some troubling similarities. Mainly in the unusual creative directions, seemingly misunderstanding

From the changes and shake-ups to come from MET Werewolf (detailed here), particular the changes to the Garou Nation and the Tribes. To some of the more troubling changes to come out of the WoD: Prelude mobile games in changing things that didn't needed to be changed, like how the Technocracy is being made more blatantly evil, or the Tremere being portrayed as a crazy Noddist cult when they're the Clan that makes the least sense for them to do so, counter to how they've been previously depicted and have progressed since first introduced.

How did the phrase go? "First time is happenstance, second time is a coincidence, third time is a pattern."

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So the thing to take away from all of this is that...people get kinda attached to the world they've invested in.

They play these games BECAUSE they care about the characters, the setting, and the events that happen in them.

Sure people can just go back to the older material and just use that...but here that's just a reflection of how disappointed they are with the new material. That they can't use the new stuff to make new games and tell new stories. That it's a reflection of how the current creators are either putting out sub-par material, or who seem to fundamentally misunderstand the kind of material that their fans want. That the company in charge of the game they like no longer has their best interests in heart, whether it be the malicious sense or just going in a creative direction

If the fans don't like the material, they won't want to buy the company's products. If people don't but the company's products, then the company doesn't get any money.

[Lian]

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And with how things are with nu-WW there's...already some troubling similarities. Mainly in the unusual creative directions, seemingly misunderstanding

From the changes and shake-ups to come from MET Werewolf (detailed here), particular the changes to the Garou Nation and the Tribes. To some of the more troubling changes to come out of the WoD: Prelude mobile games in changing things that didn't needed to be changed, like how the Technocracy is being made more blatantly evil, or the Tremere being portrayed as a crazy Noddist cult when they're the Clan that makes the least sense for them to do so, counter to how they've been previously depicted and have progressed since first introduced.

How did the phrase go? "First time is happenstance, second time is a coincidence, third time is a pattern."
.

I'd consider the Preludes more of a preview of current 5e plans than BNS Werewolf. Yes the NuWW is more heavily from a larp background BUT that's European Larps, BNS was doing its own world since well before NuWW just look at its V:TM, its no more in line with the preludes as anything else.

[Heavy Arms]

Well, there isn't a WtA Prelude to judge things with, and there were statements that BNS got feedback from WW about the direction of Werewolf. It's probably not the best indicator, because we don't really have a breakdown of what WW impacted, but it's the only thing to speculate on at the moment.

[etherial]

The previous three editions occurred in a fairly straightforward linear timeline. Each new edition taking place only a few months after the last book from the previous edition. At the beginning of 4th edition...there was a time-skip. A 6 year time skip, where suddenly there was a brand new status quo (new characters, new corporations, new progressions in magic and technology) that came right the hell out of nowhere, and the playerbase really couldn't ease into them. And that overall the changes to the setting just, didn't make the game feel like the Shadowrun the fans had known and love from 1st-3rd edition.

(although admittedly some of these setting changes were to facilitate the new dice mechanics for 4e. Which honestly Shadowrun had a long time coming: 1e-3e were notorious for how convoluted and confusing their mechanics were. Wanna know how you make freaking Damage ratings for a weapon messy and stupid? Try having it be two different numbers and a letter thrown in there!)

I disagree with you about the changes in metaplot having to do with changes in mechanics. I think they had a lot more to do with the way technological development diverged in the real world from how it was projected in 1989. Ubiquitous wifi and cellular connectivity left us in many ways more technologically advanced in 2004 than the game thought we would be in 2060. So they wrote the metaplot for the SR3-SR4 transition in order to incorporate technology the players were familiar with and advance it in line with how that technology might interact with the technology already established in SR<4.

But the big difference between Shadowrn's Metaplot and WoD's is that Shadowrun's is largely cosmetic. Technology grows and changes, corporations come and go, Governments rise and fall, but that has about as much bearing on the average Shadow Runner as changes in Professional Sports Teams moving across the country or losing their Star Player. Shadowrun players may have corporations they love and hate, but I don't think any edition of Shadowrun would have all Fox Shamans go on an unexpected week of psychotically seeking out and murdering each other, rendering a significant population of the game world unplayable due to events their new characters didn't even have any legitimate reason to know about.

Edit: This seemed more relevant to the matter at hand before I finished wriitng it but I can't find the "delete post" button.

[tasti man LH]

I disagree with you about the changes in metaplot having to do with changes in mechanics. I think they had a lot more to do with the way technological development diverged in the real world from how it was projected in 1989. Ubiquitous wifi and cellular connectivity left us in many ways more technologically advanced in 2004 than the game thought we would be in 2060. So they wrote the metaplot for the SR3-SR4 transition in order to incorporate technology the players were familiar with and advance it in line with how that technology might interact with the technology already established in SR<4.

SR4 brought in the Wireless Matrix, which drastically changed how deckers play. Yeah, it was bringing things more in line with current technology, but it was also to address the ongoing "decker/hacker problem" that's plagued Shadowrun (and many other cyberpunk games like Cyberpunk 2020). Which...still wasn't completely successful. Even when SR5 came out and CGL tried again to address it they still didn't really fix it, or just brought upon a new host of problems.

But the big difference between Shadowrn's Metaplot and WoD's is that Shadowrun's is largely cosmetic. Technology grows and changes, corporations come and go, Governments rise and fall, but that has about as much bearing on the average Shadow Runner as changes in Professional Sports Teams moving across the country or losing their Star Player. Shadowrun players may have corporations they love and hate, but I don't think any edition of Shadowrun would have all Fox Shamans go on an unexpected week of psychotically seeking out and murdering each other, rendering a significant population of the game world unplayable due to events their new characters didn't even have any legitimate reason to know about.

Ok, it may not have had the same far-reaching consequences or direct changes that WoD's metaplot has, but there were still other changes in their metaplot that would affect player characters.

Like when they added technomancers in to SR4, who were so much more powerful and versatile then the standard deckers at hacking. Which hilariously got undone when SR5 nerfed them to the point of uselessness.

Or when we had the CFD event (the event that's still ongoing in SR5's current releases, last I checked) that sheparded the transition from SR4 -> SR5. Which had the side effect of drastically increasing the costs of gear like augmentations. Which means that some gear that was easier to get in SR4 was suddenly way harder to get in SR5.

Not, it's not really the same as altering existing player options to the extent of Ravnos dying en masse with the survivors going insane or the Assamites having their blood curse lifted. But the sweeping changes to the metaplot still makes their way down to player character runner levels in Shadowrun.

[Heavy Arms]

Also, I think more importantly as it relates back to the main topic, the SR 4e/5e stuff is - like D&D 4e - a sign of what happens when a long running game gets stuck in a design conflict between what appeals to their core fans, and what could appeal to a wider, and especially newer, audience.

There's no simple answer there. A lot of long running creative properties struggle to both stay current and appealing to new and casual consumers, while keeping their core base happy with any changes made. There's a depressing history of failure at this as well (heck the recent Marvel "the problem with our slump sales was our push for greater diversity annoying old fans without getting enough new ones, not the dozen stupid things all our fans agree are dumb!" stupidity is evidence that nobody has a truly solid grasp on this).

While SR 4e and 5e have plenty of their old problems, IME they are much easier to get new players on board with because the earlier SR editions feel exceedingly dated in both game design and aesthetic style. Part of the problem is that the older style is one of the things that keeps many of the old school SR fans around.

What's concerning about WoD 5e from what we know so far, is that WW doesn't seem to have a good plan for this. Onyx Path did a lot of things with the 20th books that seemed to toe this line fairly well. I think a lot of people would have liked more changes, but in the end the line has been true enough to the old school fans to feel right while also sneaking in (or not so sneaky) a lot of smaller changes to help clean up stuff and make the games more accessible to new players. WW seems to be intent on trying to do both a massive appeal to the 90s era nostalgia, and something that's supposed to be more engaging for 21st century players... and that path is littered with failures. There's a few successes, but for the most part a more compromise/slow shift approach seems to be the better way.

[Ana Mizuki]

What's concerning about WoD 5e from what we know so far, is that WW doesn't seem to have a good plan for this. Onyx Path did a lot of things with the 20th books that seemed to toe this line fairly well. I think a lot of people would have liked more changes, but in the end the line has been true enough to the old school fans to feel right while also sneaking in (or not so sneaky) a lot of smaller changes to help clean up stuff and make the games more accessible to new players. WW seems to be intent on trying to do both a massive appeal to the 90s era nostalgia, and something that's supposed to be more engaging for 21st century players... and that path is littered with failures. There's a few successes, but for the most part a more compromise/slow shift approach seems to be the better way.

The huge difference between the changes, at least from what I can see from the MET book and the apps, is that 20th editions changes are geared to be more inclusive and to make anything statted playable in practise (yes, even Red Talons). Things like the new Laibon in DAV20 and the Mage20 open discussion of trans-people both are great examples of this. They still keep the setting's tone, but are more respectful what they are depicting than in revised or earlier editions (I still like the history of the signature Tzimisce in DAV20 ^^).

The nuWoD changes are very surface level to me. The statement that werewolves don't care about PC-culture, the Techies being against immigration, the... mess that is Avery. And in the MET book, the way every single faction that was solely for women or women as leaders has changed to being equal to all in addition of making other factions worse than they were before. The focus in general is not in making the setting more diverse to me, because the changes are very tied to current events and reactionary. Even though changes were made, no depth was truly added. In fact, I'd say at parts depth was removed.