Crossovers

[Spellfire22]

A lot of aesthetic, philosophical and rules-based reasons have been offered by people on this forum as to why crossovers between WoD and other roleplaying games are a bad idea. But what people are ignoring is that crossovers can be FUN, especially if you play fast and loose with the rules. I once ran an adventure crossing over Mage: the Ascension with one of the D&D worlds (Birthright), and my players still remember it fondly 10 years later. Just something to think about.

[Aleph]

Nobody says crossovers can't be fun (that's rather subjective), but they aren't fully supported and can be hard to do. If you play fast and loose with the rules, you better have a group of players that are on the same page as you, if you get what I mean. Otherwise Mathusalems start being turned into chairs, people starts developing horribly crippling rules to prevent this to happen, and then fun stops...if you get what I mean.

[Spellfire22]

Actually, I have never had this problem in all the years I've been running crossovers, so I really don't get what you mean. In the unlikely event someone tried to turn a Methuselah into a chair, I would simply rule that it didn't work, then let them try and figure out why. If they managed to figure out why it didn't work, AND they were clever enough to find a way around it, AND I felt their characters were powerful enough to actually accomplish this feat (Sphere Level 5 mages, for example), then I would reward their initiative by (gasp!) letting them turn the Methuselah into a chair. PCs are supposed to be able to perform epic deeds, after all, and turning a Methuselah into a chair is pretty epic. I will admit that most of my players have been playing together for years, and are unlikely to try and abuse the rules in the manner you suggest.

[kalinara]

I can't speak for Aleph, but the issue I've always been concerned about in terms of crossovers isn't the player characters turning an NPC Methuselah into a chair, which is all in good fun, but in turning a fellow PC into a chair. It can be very disheartening to be playing the weak person in an unbalanced game.

And then there are concerns like vampire characters not being able to be active during the day, werewolf characters being antagonistic to anything Wyrm-ish, and so forth.

I think it's doable, but it requires a lot of communication and groundwork first in order to make sure everyone knows what they're getting into and has a good time.

[Spellfire22]

You raise a very good point there. Luckily, my players have all been good friends for years, so I've never really had that problem.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

I can't speak for Aleph, but the issue I've always been concerned about in terms of crossovers isn't the player characters turning an NPC Methuselah into a chair, which is all in good fun, but in turning a fellow PC into a chair. It can be very disheartening to be playing the weak person in an unbalanced game.

And then there are concerns like vampire characters not being able to be active during the day, werewolf characters being antagonistic to anything Wyrm-ish, and so forth.

That's just the most obvious restriction with Garou and Fera. There are a number of others depending on the characters in question, and even that basic one can technically be kind of up-ended if playing a Shadow Lord who happens to be part of the Bringers of Light camp (though the werewolf would be there to infiltrate, not cooperate).

I think it's doable, but it requires a lot of communication and groundwork first in order to make sure everyone knows what they're getting into and has a good time.

The books don't really help here when they specifically call out crossover mechanics. Well, actually, it's more that Vampire's books don't help; everything else tends to offer more reasonable guidelines that have changed and developed over the years. Vampire still uses the rules from 1993's The Chaos Factor, which are terrible forward and back and don't even really account for some drastic mechanical differences between games, like how in Vampire you resist frenzies over time while in Werewolf you roll Rage and possibly blow up (or not) in one go.

[Aleph]

I can't speak for Aleph, but the issue I've always been concerned about in terms of crossovers isn't the player characters turning an NPC Methuselah into a chair, which is all in good fun, but in turning a fellow PC into a chair. It can be very disheartening to be playing the weak person in an unbalanced game.

Yeah, that happens. A Werewolf might not have Life 5, but with their claws, and a good Crafting skill...

Actually, I have never had this problem in all the years I've been running crossovers, so I really don't get what you mean. In the unlikely event someone tried to turn a Methuselah into a chair, I would simply rule that it didn't work, then let them try and figure out why.

What I'm getting at includes (but it's not limmited to) what Kalinara said. Players don't always play along with the way you want to do stuff.
Just saying "it doesn't work" may not satisfy a player, who may feel antagonized by the ST (like the ST it's using fiat to kill or depower the character unjustly, which happens).
Antagonistic relationships happens between players and players and ST alike. In my experience, it's the main source of unfun in all games. That's why it's so important to be, as I say, "on the same page" with your players.

If you are on the same page nothing bad can happen.

I've played a neonate among other neonates and powerful ancillae (all PC, the ancillae were playing for a long time before I joined the table), and we had no problem with "game balance". None at all. (while this wasn't crossover, both are situations where "game balance" doesn't exist)
Until a guy playing a powerful character decided he found fun to kill a newcomer to the table (something that he had done or tried to a few times), and the ST decided to stop him throwing an Elder in his path that he couldn't possibly defeat. While the Elder was part of the story, and that challenge had sense, it was an obvious move to force the hand of the first player (as in, his intentions could be seen from outer space), and offended both the "player killer" and the "would be victim" (well, I'm not sure about the latter, because he never came back).

When this happen, I say that the players weren't "on the same page", one wanted a LOT of PvP (game balance it's important then), but the ST (and most of the table, really) wanted none of that (we were happy playing and plotting in our place of the "food chain", the world it's a big place).

You haven't the sligthest shadow of game balance in crossover, and the ST will be held account of any fiats (or "loose" use of the rules) by the players. So, be sure you all are on the same page.

It seems you don't have that problem, more power for you.

[Ambrosia]

Random note:
Spellfire22 is specifically talking about crossovers between WoD and OTHER roleplaying games
Not between different WoD splatlines.

[Spellfire22]

Aleph : I definitely see your point. I would not try a crossover scenario with a group of players I was not familiar with, for exactly the reasons you cite.

In the example I gave, my players were all playing Mage: the Ascension characters who traveled to the planet Aebrinys (the Birthright setting for Dungeons and Dragons). I simply adapted various characters and monsters from Birthright to WoD rules (which I prefer to D&D rules anyway).

Hope this helps clarify things.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Aleph : I definitely see your point. I would not try a crossover scenario with a group of players I was not familiar with, for exactly the reasons you cite.

In the example I gave, my players were all playing Mage: the Ascension characters who traveled to the planet Aebrinys (the Birthright setting for Dungeons and Dragons). I simply adapted various characters and monsters from Birthright to WoD rules (which I prefer to D&D rules anyway).

Hope this helps clarify things.

That will, oddly enough, probably be less contentious than a crossover between different WoD games.

[Aleph]

In the example I gave, my players were all playing Mage: the Ascension characters who traveled to the planet Aebrinys (the Birthright setting for Dungeons and Dragons). I simply adapted various characters and monsters from Birthright to WoD rules (which I prefer to D&D rules anyway).

Under that premise, it's actually easier than doing full crossover within WoD.

Since your PC use all the same rules (are all from the same game), and you adapt all "other" rules to your story, you can't have the kind of problems of game balance that happen when several characters play-and the players expect them to play-with a different set of rules than other characters. You shouldn't have balance problems at all under that premisse (well, not more than the usual in any cWoD game).

[Camilla]

I've written crossover campaigns that freely mixed Vampire, Mage, and the Sailor Moon RPG from back in 1999. And yes, I gleefully throw away the metaplot so I can make the crossover work.

Usually, I'd use either the 1st Edition Vampire rules or convert Vampire to Big Eyes Small Mouth 1st Edition (the same system Sailor Moon uses).

[Saur Ops Specialist]

I've written crossover campaigns that freely mixed Vampire, Mage, and the Sailor Moon RPG from back in 1999. And yes, I gleefully throw away the metaplot so I can make the crossover work.

Usually, I'd use either the 1st Edition Vampire rules or convert Vampire to Big Eyes Small Mouth 1st Edition (the same system Sailor Moon uses).

Why would the metaplot matter one way or the other?

[Camilla]

Why would the metaplot matter one way or the other?

I personally don't like the metaplot and the Revised metaplot in particular is very exclusionary, both thematically and in terms of discouraging crossovers of any sort.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

I personally don't like the metaplot and the Revised metaplot in particular is very exclusionary, both thematically and in terms of discouraging crossovers of any sort.

Revised metaplot was often the only point there was crossover in revised.