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  • #16
    Originally posted by Spellfire22 View Post
    I did not see any reference to the spirit nuke in the Black Hand book.
    Because like I said, that event was removed from the continuity of V20, or at least V20 if you're using the Tal'Mahe'Ra.

    Originally posted by Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra, Pg. 11
    Finally, the Black Hand has a weird history in publication. It had different treatment across different editions. We can’t accommodate all those treatments. For example, in Vampire: The Masquerade Revised Edition, the Hand doesn’t exist. They fell victim to a spiritual nuclear weapon. Every last one of them gone forever. This book assumes that didn’t happen. After all, it’d be weird filling pages with information about a completely eliminated cult. Instead, we’re going to showcase the Hand, to give you the tools to use them and some hooks to make them work in your story in different ways.


    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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    • #17
      Honestly, I'd have liked a somewhat similar treatment of the whole destruction of Enoch thing as the Avatar Storm got in M20 (ie. it happened, but who knows, maybe there are ruins, maybe the city started to build itself back and surely not everyone died in the event?). I know it's problematic, but still.


      If nothing worked, then let's think!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by PMárk View Post
        Honestly, I'd have liked a somewhat similar treatment of the whole destruction of Enoch thing as the Avatar Storm got in M20 (ie. it happened, but who knows, maybe there are ruins, maybe the city started to build itself back and surely not everyone died in the event?). I know it's problematic, but still.
        True but Enoch is the center of the organization, with its leaders and many of its members calling it home. So its sudden destruction is a severely damaging blow to the organization. Hence why the True Hand was dead in the Rev Ed.

        Could you have a situation where the True Hand survives Enoch's destruction? Sure, but that's not something the book itself supports as I like I said, it was made under the assumption that Enoch wasn't destroyed/ravaged/whatever in 1999. And frankly a True Hand that had suffered such loss would not be in the state it is depicted as in the book within the span of less than twenty years.


        Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post

          True but Enoch is the center of the organization, with its leaders and many of its members calling it home. So its sudden destruction is a severely damaging blow to the organization. Hence why the True Hand was dead in the Rev Ed.

          Could you have a situation where the True Hand survives Enoch's destruction? Sure, but that's not something the book itself supports as I like I said, it was made under the assumption that Enoch wasn't destroyed/ravaged/whatever in 1999. And frankly a True Hand that had suffered such loss would not be in the state it is depicted as in the book within the span of less than twenty years.
          That's all right, I get where the authors came from, and choose to do the Black Hand book for V20 this way. I just think, a post-revised/post Gehenna take on the Black Hand and Enoch actually has a lot of potential and I somewhat hope WW will take the opportunity in V5.


          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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          • #20
            I suspect the majority of customers interested in buying a True Black Hand V20 book would have been less than thrilled for it to involve playing a member of a broken, leaderless organization picking up the pieces (or failing to do so) after its raison d'être was demonstrated to be false. That treatment may have appealed to people who hated the original premise and wanted to see it stamped out in Revised, but they're hardly the target audience.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by PMárk View Post
              Honestly, I'd have liked a somewhat similar treatment of the whole destruction of Enoch thing as the Avatar Storm got in M20 (ie. it happened, but who knows, maybe there are ruins, maybe the city started to build itself back and surely not everyone died in the event?). I know it's problematic, but still.
              If you can have Spectral Nukes, then you could have what would in practice be nuclear shelters in the Shadowlands...They could perhaps even be created in a day or a few (or within hours) in an emergency, considering the Tal'Mahe'Ra has the three Liches and the Idran True Mages. The Mages also could have divined the coming strike.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                If you can have Spectral Nukes, then you could have what would in practice be nuclear shelters in the Shadowlands...They could perhaps even be created in a day or a few (or within hours) in an emergency, considering the Tal'Mahe'Ra has the three Liches and the Idran True Mages. The Mages also could have divined the coming strike.
                The thing is, the relic-nukes had never been used before that point and we don't know how many exist. It's also something that few know about. So it's unlikely they would have had 'nuclear shelters' in Enoch.

                There's also the fact the destruction of Enoch was ultimately engineered by Anubis to awaken Osiris. And when you have Gods or God-like entities interfering in things, it's hard to work ways around that. There's also all the vague prophecy stuff circling around that implies that relic-Enoch was just as doomed as the First City was.

                But even besides all that, there's one other major thing with the destruction of Enoch that likewise hinders the odds of those in Enoch surviving, that the blast triggered the Sixth Great Maelstrom, a Maelstrom so destructive that it not only destroyed Stygia and shattered the status quo of the Underworld but woke up Osiris, cast thousands of wraiths into the Skinlands, fractured the prison of the Fallen Angels and turned the Shroud into the Stormwall.

                So yeah, it's hard to have Enoch and the Tal'Mahe'Ra survive all that in a realistic manner. If I was to do that, I'd have the Tal'Mahe'Ra survivors be those weren't in Enoch at the time and those that were there but decided as the Stygian siege dragged on that they wouldn't take the chance of staying and fled beforehand.

                But Enoch itself would be lost. If it was to be found it would via a lengthy and difficult quest. But more likely it would remain lost and the Tal'Mahe'Ra would have to put itself back together without it.


                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                  If you can have Spectral Nukes, then you could have what would in practice be nuclear shelters in the Shadowlands...They could perhaps even be created in a day or a few (or within hours) in an emergency, considering the Tal'Mahe'Ra has the three Liches and the Idran True Mages. The Mages also could have divined the coming strike.
                  And also, nobody knows how far (or even exactly where) the Labyrinth stretches or what powers the tombs of the Aralu has.


                  If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                  • #24
                    I liked the idea that each of the games had an eschatology which implied one day there would be an ending of the world. However, I never played or wanted to play in a game when that actually happened. I liked that there were sects, groups, and individuals who believed that to be the case and preparing for it while others lived there lives completely ignoring it and still more didn't believe, but occasionally looked behind their back. STs and players could pick and choose what elements they wanted for their own chronicles. Which was great.

                    Gehenna, Apocalypse, Ascension, Doomsday, and Winter were all referring to the same event because obviously the world can only end once. For that reason, I always disliked the idea of each game ending on its own and thought the various scenarios in their books were disappointing. And I have zero interest in any 5th edition which picks up where those books left off.

                    The thing that kills player interest is this metaplot crap where the game becomes hijacked to whatever the current developer thinks is cool. That might be fun for one particular chronicle, but very often it directly goes against what I (or my friends) want to do as an ST. While I liked the more subdued approach of Revised compared to some of the ridiculous gonzo stuff of Second Edition, the second edition books allowed me to pick ala carte what I wanted. Revised seemed to want to railroad me into taking my game in areas I did not like. No, in my games the Gangrel did not leave the Camarilla. The Ravnos were not all wiped out (though I never really liked the clan). The Stargazers did not leave the Garou Nation. The Avatar Storm did not happen. And anything important that happened did not happen because some NPCs made them happen. What's important in my games is what the PCs do.

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                    • #25
                      I agree on that. I like my apocaliptic stuff in WoD, but I'm not a fan of the way it was handled in ToJ.

                      Originally posted by Kalinara
                      Mage 20's default assumption seems to be that the Avatar Storm happened, but it's mostly resolved (with a thicker Gauntlet here and there). So that would imply that at least some of the triggering events still happened.

                      Does the new Black Hand book mention the spirit nuke at all?
                      Of all the triggering events, the fall of Doissetep it's the one that doesn't damage the rest of the gamelines.

                      Personally, while it's the most disregarded of the causes, I think that it's all that you need. The Storm is formed of lots of mage souls circling the earth and piercing awakened avatars, so all that you need it's the death of a lot of mages in a suficently spectacular way. You can always say that the arch-magic(k) released in the event of the death of Doissetep archmages (who likely released some nasty magicks before the moment of their deaths, and perhaps had even nastier stuff to be triggered in the case of their demise) created enough energy/momentum to destroy nearby realms and shatter a lot of avatars. The fact they're circling the earth could be because the 1rst instinc of avatars would be to search new hosts, but didn't manage to pass the Gauntlet because they're a screaming mass of souls with little control or purpose.
                      Last edited by Aleph; 05-11-2017, 03:15 PM.

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                      • #26
                        In my present games, I had it canonical that millennium fever swept the supernatural world and some big world-changing events occurred during that time which fed it.

                        But the world DIDN'T end and they all feel silly about it now.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                          And I have zero interest in any 5th edition which picks up where those books left off.
                          As far as I know, everything will be canonical, up to the ToJ, so the apocalypse books would not be canon.


                          The thing that kills player interest is this metaplot crap where the game becomes hijacked to whatever the current developer thinks is cool. That might be fun for one particular chronicle, but very often it directly goes against what I (or my friends) want to do as an ST. While I liked the more subdued approach of Revised compared to some of the ridiculous gonzo stuff of Second Edition, the second edition books allowed me to pick ala carte what I wanted. Revised seemed to want to railroad me into taking my game in areas I did not like. No, in my games the Gangrel did not leave the Camarilla. The Ravnos were not all wiped out (though I never really liked the clan). The Stargazers did not leave the Garou Nation. The Avatar Storm did not happen. And anything important that happened did not happen because some NPCs made them happen. What's important in my games is what the PCs do.
                          Ah, the good 'ol "get away from my home-game, you filthy developer / I want to be the PCs to be the superstars of the show". That's a perfectly understandable and valid look on the thing, however there are equally good arguments on the side of the metaplot. I don't like every change of the metaplot, but I like the feeling of a constantly changing, living setting and i like to read stories, beside gaming.


                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            In my present games, I had it canonical that millennium fever swept the supernatural world and some big world-changing events occurred during that time which fed it.

                            But the world DIDN'T end and they all feel silly about it now.
                            Accidentally, that's the picture I got from the NWO book. Everyone waited for the End of the World, then it just didn't happen and everyone felt a bit embarrassed.


                            If nothing worked, then let's think!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                              Accidentally, that's the picture I got from the NWO book. Everyone waited for the End of the World, then it just didn't happen and everyone felt a bit embarrassed.
                              Mind you, the Technocracy killing an Antediluvian and werewolves wiping out the Seventh Generation is fairly impressive story fodder.



                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #30
                                I prefer a cyclical apocalypse. A zodiacal age lasts 2160 years and each new age brings on a change in spirit with consequential material changes to follow.

                                For Wraith the Oblivion I like the idea of the Dark Kingdom of Flint wresting control of the afterlife in Canada and the United States from Europe, perhaps with the aid of Orpheus.

                                For Werewolf the Apocalypse: yes the Stargazers left Earth, but now they are coming back, and they are bringing the Croatan, White Howlers and the lost changing breeds with them

                                Hunter the Reckoning: The imbued are just another breed of monster to fight, and now they've broken into factions to fight among themselves just like the Vampires, Mages, and Changelings before them.

                                Mummy V20: I hope this will include the smoke mummies of the Philippines.

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