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  • ChewyGranola
    started a topic End Times yes or no?

    End Times yes or no?

    So I'm looking back, both through my own collection and the wiki, on all the super cool WoD games, reminiscing about the past and generally enjoying myself.
    One of the most important elements of these now old books is the sense of impending doom, Gehenna is coming, Hunters are worrying about the Reckoning, the Technocracy freaking out that they may be losing control, etc.
    I have V20 and M20, and both kind of don't have the same feel. Not that it's a BAD thing, because obviously the whole 90s conspiracy plus Armageddon kind of thing was very specific to that time frame, and the new stuff is fantastic.
    However, I'm wondering if people running the games ignore these elements or just move the time frame up or what? When I was playing a ton of WoD in the 90s it was always a background element. The vampire games I have run in the 2000s and 2010s have mostly ignored that, but for other games like Hunter or Demon I don't know how ignoring it would be possible.

  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied
    Grumpy RPG Review's reference to the Dark Tower was apt, I think, since some oWoD mythos (including the supposed ties to Exalted) took more of a 'cyclical' view of things. Heck even in earlier editions of Vampire we were told that the Antes rising up was cyclical (it was what, every 2300 years or so I think? I can't recall and am too lazy to check ATM). I've always felt there was ample justifications to be able to treat it as 'final' or 'not final' as you wanted. And what you want to happen is also up to you (do you want civilization to continue as it does, or do you want to reduce things to Fallout level?)

    My view has been that the End Times/Gehenna were part of that cycle and it either is still ongoing/has been resolved depending on ones view (and how closely one wants to look at V5. etc.) Even if some things (like the withering) get overcome this may lead to other problems until the underlying causes are addressed (in my headcanon alot of the 'end times' stuff like Gehenna stemmed from an increasing loss of magic in the world, and Vampires have suddenly become bygones (to use Mage terminology).

    I also happen to feel that even stuff like you get in Gehenna does not necessarily have to be 'final final' - they left it open ended in lots of ways to end or continue as a storyteller saw fit, and that can be made to work with the continuiation of V20 (at least. I'm still reserving judgement on V5.)

    Heck how often do you get doomsday cults that say THE END IS NIGH only for it not to happen and then they suddenly come up with a reason why that didn't really count and 'oh its REALLY going to end at this point.' And the line that must not be crossed keeps getting pushed back further and further...

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  • Reasor
    replied
    Taking the idea of Gehenna as a metaphor for real world Y2K panic and running with it, I'd love to see a supplement, game, or other media project set in the early 80's. It's too bad that CoD's "New Age Requiem" book makes the idea seem redundant.

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  • Nail Eater
    replied
    Originally posted by hachiman View Post
    No WoD game i run is set after 21 December 2012. I tend to set games in the 90's and run them as period pieces, and if the timeline goes all the way to 2012, i've ended the world and run the End Times as the final part of the campaign.
    That's something I've been thinking about. But do you give players a chance to save the world and if yes how hard it will be?

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  • hachiman
    replied
    No WoD game i run is set after 21 December 2012. I tend to set games in the 90's and run them as period pieces, and if the timeline goes all the way to 2012, i've ended the world and run the End Times as the final part of the campaign.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nail Eater
    replied
    Recently I'm trying to make either ToJ and 20th anniversary edition canon in my games. As far as I know parts of ToJ are canon in 20th anniversary edition (Avatar Storm, 6th Great Maelstorm) and some are not (rising of the Antideluvians). As I have too many players to form one pack/coterie/cahal I thought about a great campaign for a few groups, which adventures will be interwined and there will be some focal points during which you PCs will decide the fate of the world (like who will get Sargon Fragments, will Fanum will be saved or will Samuel Height get the blood of Shaitan). If they succeed the end of the world will brush aside but if they don't...

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  • Reasor
    replied
    The narrators of a number of Vampire books over the decades have framed the Lupines as goofy New Agers who use a belief in the coming Apocalypse to justify their natural cravings for bloody murder.

    It would make for a fun, if possibly short, Werewolf chronicle if the Leeches turned out to be right.

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
    Most of the WoD games I've been in have ignored the end times element while keeping in "The world is a horrible/decaying place." In a sense the "end times" have come and gone. The world has gone to shit. Now you just do what you need to survive.
    To paraphrase Stephen King, "The world had moved on."

    The end of the world is process, not an event. And as for cycles...

    "There's an idea that hell is other people. My idea is that it might be repetition."

    Again, Mr. King.


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  • moonwolf8
    replied
    I prefer a cyclical apocalypse. A zodiacal age lasts 2160 years and each new age brings on a change in spirit with consequential material changes to follow.

    For Wraith the Oblivion I like the idea of the Dark Kingdom of Flint wresting control of the afterlife in Canada and the United States from Europe, perhaps with the aid of Orpheus.

    For Werewolf the Apocalypse: yes the Stargazers left Earth, but now they are coming back, and they are bringing the Croatan, White Howlers and the lost changing breeds with them

    Hunter the Reckoning: The imbued are just another breed of monster to fight, and now they've broken into factions to fight among themselves just like the Vampires, Mages, and Changelings before them.

    Mummy V20: I hope this will include the smoke mummies of the Philippines.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    Accidentally, that's the picture I got from the NWO book. Everyone waited for the End of the World, then it just didn't happen and everyone felt a bit embarrassed.
    Mind you, the Technocracy killing an Antediluvian and werewolves wiping out the Seventh Generation is fairly impressive story fodder.

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  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    In my present games, I had it canonical that millennium fever swept the supernatural world and some big world-changing events occurred during that time which fed it.

    But the world DIDN'T end and they all feel silly about it now.
    Accidentally, that's the picture I got from the NWO book. Everyone waited for the End of the World, then it just didn't happen and everyone felt a bit embarrassed.

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  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

    And I have zero interest in any 5th edition which picks up where those books left off.
    As far as I know, everything will be canonical, up to the ToJ, so the apocalypse books would not be canon.


    The thing that kills player interest is this metaplot crap where the game becomes hijacked to whatever the current developer thinks is cool. That might be fun for one particular chronicle, but very often it directly goes against what I (or my friends) want to do as an ST. While I liked the more subdued approach of Revised compared to some of the ridiculous gonzo stuff of Second Edition, the second edition books allowed me to pick ala carte what I wanted. Revised seemed to want to railroad me into taking my game in areas I did not like. No, in my games the Gangrel did not leave the Camarilla. The Ravnos were not all wiped out (though I never really liked the clan). The Stargazers did not leave the Garou Nation. The Avatar Storm did not happen. And anything important that happened did not happen because some NPCs made them happen. What's important in my games is what the PCs do.
    Ah, the good 'ol "get away from my home-game, you filthy developer / I want to be the PCs to be the superstars of the show". That's a perfectly understandable and valid look on the thing, however there are equally good arguments on the side of the metaplot. I don't like every change of the metaplot, but I like the feeling of a constantly changing, living setting and i like to read stories, beside gaming.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    In my present games, I had it canonical that millennium fever swept the supernatural world and some big world-changing events occurred during that time which fed it.

    But the world DIDN'T end and they all feel silly about it now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aleph
    replied
    I agree on that. I like my apocaliptic stuff in WoD, but I'm not a fan of the way it was handled in ToJ.

    Originally posted by Kalinara
    Mage 20's default assumption seems to be that the Avatar Storm happened, but it's mostly resolved (with a thicker Gauntlet here and there). So that would imply that at least some of the triggering events still happened.

    Does the new Black Hand book mention the spirit nuke at all?
    Of all the triggering events, the fall of Doissetep it's the one that doesn't damage the rest of the gamelines.

    Personally, while it's the most disregarded of the causes, I think that it's all that you need. The Storm is formed of lots of mage souls circling the earth and piercing awakened avatars, so all that you need it's the death of a lot of mages in a suficently spectacular way. You can always say that the arch-magic(k) released in the event of the death of Doissetep archmages (who likely released some nasty magicks before the moment of their deaths, and perhaps had even nastier stuff to be triggered in the case of their demise) created enough energy/momentum to destroy nearby realms and shatter a lot of avatars. The fact they're circling the earth could be because the 1rst instinc of avatars would be to search new hosts, but didn't manage to pass the Gauntlet because they're a screaming mass of souls with little control or purpose.
    Last edited by Aleph; 05-11-2017, 03:15 PM.

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    I liked the idea that each of the games had an eschatology which implied one day there would be an ending of the world. However, I never played or wanted to play in a game when that actually happened. I liked that there were sects, groups, and individuals who believed that to be the case and preparing for it while others lived there lives completely ignoring it and still more didn't believe, but occasionally looked behind their back. STs and players could pick and choose what elements they wanted for their own chronicles. Which was great.

    Gehenna, Apocalypse, Ascension, Doomsday, and Winter were all referring to the same event because obviously the world can only end once. For that reason, I always disliked the idea of each game ending on its own and thought the various scenarios in their books were disappointing. And I have zero interest in any 5th edition which picks up where those books left off.

    The thing that kills player interest is this metaplot crap where the game becomes hijacked to whatever the current developer thinks is cool. That might be fun for one particular chronicle, but very often it directly goes against what I (or my friends) want to do as an ST. While I liked the more subdued approach of Revised compared to some of the ridiculous gonzo stuff of Second Edition, the second edition books allowed me to pick ala carte what I wanted. Revised seemed to want to railroad me into taking my game in areas I did not like. No, in my games the Gangrel did not leave the Camarilla. The Ravnos were not all wiped out (though I never really liked the clan). The Stargazers did not leave the Garou Nation. The Avatar Storm did not happen. And anything important that happened did not happen because some NPCs made them happen. What's important in my games is what the PCs do.

    Leave a comment:

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